Issues with bitting and other stuff - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
 50Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 53 Old 05-05-2019, 11:37 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 3,232
• Horses: 0
Might there be the possibility that this horse might never be a barrel horse?
She might be a terrific trail horse and a short shank English style mechanical hackamore might be a good piece of tack for her.
Just a thought...
ChieTheRider likes this.

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, it's because your tactics suck. ~ Marine 1SGT J. Reifinger
Dustbunny is offline  
post #32 of 53 Old 05-05-2019, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 865
• Horses: 2
I mean she would be an amazing endurance or just trail horse because she's half Arabian and just does not get tired. Whenever we go on trails we end up riding with the other Arabs and the Tennessee Walkers. Thing is, she's freaking fast. She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern. I wouldn't be surprised if she could make an even 16 seconds easily. The fastest at the last race I went to was about 16.6. It's just that I can't find a bit to fit at the moment, for any discipline. I prefer the contact of a short/no shank bit vs one with shanks. First thing first is to get her teeth done and rule that issue out. (The darn truck has been in the shop for a month now. I'm just about to ask if I can borrow someone's rig because she needs a coggins and a teeth float)

But I was actually looking at those fleece/leather hackamores. I think she might like that, but I don't know. She's picky about those. I think she doesn't like the chain under the chin. When I wrap a curb chain with vetwrap or tape she does better. Her discomfort response is to ignore everything you tell her and just run. Like, I wouldn't use a Little S Hack on her.

Sensitive Arabians....
gottatrot likes this.

No matter how much you think you know about horses, there will always be one that'll come along and teach you something new.
ChieTheRider is offline  
post #33 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 04:57 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,132
• Horses: 2
People talk about bits like you can just rank them from softest to hardest based on the amount of leverage they have and the style and thickness of the mouthpiece. However, this is based on mechanics and physics but does not take into consideration the individual horse's anatomy and preferences.

So let's say a thick, gentle snaffle is supposed to be more comfortable than a thinner curb bit with some leverage, but in reality the horse might have sensitive skin or touchy nerves on the tongue or bars and that "gentle" snaffle might be very painful for the horse. In contrast, the thinner curb might avoid all those areas and the horse might feel very comfortable with it hanging lightly off its tongue and only contacting with a light squeeze of the chain under the chin, which the horse responds to before it gets uncomfortable.

What is most important is what the horse tells you. My last mare was most comfortable in a myler curb and even if I rode with contact and direct reining (supposedly a "no-no" with a curb), she was quite comfortable and did not think it was harsh. Ditto for an English hackamore, which I would use with contact sometimes when galloping around, and people use them for speed work and jumping.

I've met a couple horses with pink skin and white mouths that were very sensitive to bits and could not be ridden in anything that applied pressure to the skin around or inside their mouths.

As far as the mullen vs ported D goes, it really depends on the individual. My current gelding does not like tongue pressure or anything near the palate. So he did not like either a mullen mouth or a higher port, which I got thinking it would be kinder since he doesn't like tongue pressure. But he only likes a lower port, with relief for both his tongue and palate. A Kimberwicke is ideal for him.


If I were showing, I'd ride mine in the Kimberwicke and then switch to either a D with a similar mouthpiece or a curb with a similar mouthpiece, depending on what I was doing. So I'd say find out what type of mouthpiece avoids the pressure your horse does not do well with, and then go from there.
Kalraii, Knave and ChieTheRider like this.
gottatrot is offline  
post #34 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 10:23 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: California
Posts: 897
• Horses: 2
I would second looking into kimberwick after hearing how you want something with a short shank. The kimberwick lets you choose how much shank you use.

Then there's something like this, which is similar in that it has a slot for the rein to go so it's not just loose in the ring. It would also apply some of the same principles of a curb bit.


I'm not sure if you can use the slotted bits in english shows or not.
ChieTheRider likes this.
Filou is offline  
post #35 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 865
• Horses: 2
A D ring has leverage, and there are ones with a port so it has tongue relief. If I do some further experiments and find she likes the port better than mullen, and a D is legal for English. I feel like I have better communication with a shorter shank or no shank at all.

I have two kimberwickes. One I'm selling because it's a snaffle style one with a twisted mouth, don't like it. Horses don't really like it either. The other has a very thick mouthpiece and it doesn't work with her mouth. And I need to get it off the old bridle it's on now...chicago screws rusted lol. I'm not the biggest fan of kimberwickes though, I'd rather use a pelham if it came down to it. But it all depends on the horse. Some like them, some don't. And frankly if a horse likes the bit, ride them in it. I saw something somewhere that said a bit should be less than 5% of the rider's communication with the horse...seems reasonable.

I'm not against using a "big" bit. I'm a firm believer that most of the time, the bit is only as hard as the rider. A horse can work in a spade bit better than most can work in a "gentle" one. There are some exceptions, like certain nasty chain bits and wire wrapped ones. But generally speaking as long as the horse and rider understand exactly what they're supposed to do with that bit...it's as gentle as can be.

No matter how much you think you know about horses, there will always be one that'll come along and teach you something new.
ChieTheRider is offline  
post #36 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 01:31 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,421
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
She got shod today so I decided we'd ride down to the dirt road and have a bit of a run.

She responds well to the bit at low speeds but when she goes faster it's like trying to stop a volkswagen with a bungee cord.

I don't know what to do though.
If she does not respond well at speed, then do not allow her to "have a bit of a run". If you purposefully put her into a situation where she will "fail", then she will. Instead, set her up for success by only asking for speeds you know you can control her.


And yes, please get her teeth checked if it has been a couple years because at least that is something you can rule out for hurting her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
My main questions are, how might the curb be not hurting her in comparison the the snaffle? How would the broken mouthpiece be possibly hurting her but not the mullen? Do those mouthpieces affect the teeth differently?
Some horses are much happier in a bit with a solid mouthpiece of some kind.

However, also keep in mind that the curb you posted is a lot more bit compared to a plain snaffle. It might be that it gives more "bite" and thus makes her respect it better and then she doesn't pull on you.

I much prefer to use "enough bit" on a horse so I do not have to pull. Rather than use something too light and then you end up pulling and creating sores, which also does nothing to soften the horse's mouth. When they have learned to respect the "bigger bit" then you can go back down to something lighter and keep the horse soft at the same time. You re-train them to be soft to anything.


Yes sometimes people will go to a bigger bit and then end up relying on that bigger bit to control the horse. But the difference there is that if you PULL on the horse in the bigger bit, then yes, you will just create a worse problem by bitting up and going stronger. The bit is only the training tool. If you do nothing different with your hands, then yes you will also create problems in the bigger bit. But if you ride them correctly and keep them soft, you can start with something they currently respect and then gradually reduce the bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
we had a bad day today. She decided she didn't know what "whoa" meant and I just about wiped off while trying to lope the barrel pattern- she's not collected at the lope very well. (It could be the saddle though, tried something different) I want to find a good hackamore for barrel racing and playdays that isn't ridiculously strong.
Quite honestly, you have a horse that you cannot stop and therefore you should be nowhere near the barrels with her. You need to fix her training holes before you put her on the pattern. Stop working the barrels.

Again, do not put her into a situation right now where she is set up to fail.

And DO put her in something you can control her in. It is WORSE to her to put her in something too weak that you are going to pull on her with and get into a runaway situation, than to put her into a bit that she RESPECTS. Then work your way back down as the horse re-learns to respect the bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
Trainer keeps telling me I need a strong bit if I'm going to run barrels....I mean yeah I wouldn't run in a halter but nobody says I can't if my horse is trained to do so.
What does your trainer say about you not being able to stop your horse? (I don't understand why your trainer would allow you to run barrels when your horse does not have the basics required to do so.)

While it is important to find the "right bit" for your horse that they like, I quite honestly think you are thinking too hard about this. I believe that less of your problem is the bit, and more of the problem is TRAINING. Focus on the training. There will not be a magical bit that will fix all her training holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
Like really...we went to a rodeo last night and God almighty this one girl came in on a wild eyed bucking paint and she was YANKING on that horse's mouth.

I feel like the low levels is a bunch of half-wild horses and half-crazy riders.
So how does that differ from your horse running off with you the other day while you were doing the barrels at home?



I do agree there are plenty of barrel racers out there that give barrel racing a bad name. But if you can't even control your horse at home, I don't think you are in a position to be judging others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern. I wouldn't be surprised if she could make an even 16 seconds easily. The fastest at the last race I went to was about 16.6. It's just that I can't find a bit to fit at the moment, for any discipline.
So.... I am confused now. She's won barrel races??
You say she can run a 16 at your local race .... but she hasn't?
I'm not sure if you are just talking up your horse, or if she ran barrel before you got her, or what.

Again, I think less of your problems have anything to do with the bit ... and more to do with training. The bit is not going to make you outrun everyone else by 6 tenths.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.
beau159 is offline  
post #37 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 865
• Horses: 2
@beau159 I agree, but I think we're having a misunderstanding here.

Quote:
If she does not respond well at speed, then do not allow her to "have a bit of a run". If you purposefully put her into a situation where she will "fail", then she will. Instead, set her up for success by only asking for speeds you know you can control her.
I agree...I was being dumb here. My fault. I've since started from the bottom. Perfect groundwork. then perfect the walk. Then the trot. Then lope. Etc.

1. I can control her now. This thread was posted almost three months ago. Since then she has vastly improved. Vastly. Most of the time she'll stop on a dime in a halter. Now sometimes she gets spooked or hyped up or something and then doesn't listen, and that's a training issue. We're working on that. But most of the time she stops on voice alone. We've come a long way in three months. I think she'd be ready to actually race at full speed in a week or two if I actually worked with her. The reason it's taken a long time is because I'm still a full time student and nobody else rides my horses. I've got to do it all. And she's got to have her teeth done.

2. No, she hasn't won races, I didn't say she had. I said I "wouldn't be surprised if she could". Now maybe she can't but I think it's a valid assumption that she can if she's responsive. IF. If is the big word here.

3. Again, I can stop her. She was fine at a walk on the barrels. I wouldn't have trotted if she couldn't walk it. Then she was fine at the trot. I wouldn't have gone faster if she couldn't trot it. And she was fine at a slow lope, but it was there that it fell apart. She looked at the gate and went that direction. What frustrated me is not really that I almost fell or she didn't respond, but that a few days before I loped the pattern and she did perfectly fine. And then suddenly she went back to being a spaz. Part of it is separation anxiety from her buddy who was in the stall where she couldn't see him.

Quote:
But if you can't even control your horse at home, I don't think you are in a position to be judging others.
See above.

Quote:
However, also keep in mind that the curb you posted is a lot more bit compared to a plain snaffle. It might be that it gives more "bite" and thus makes her respect it better and then she doesn't pull on you.
Well aware of that, actually. And I considered that. I focused for the entire ride using seat/leg/neck rein aids instead of the bit. She stopped when I said "whoa" without me touching the bit.

The main reason I made this thread is to find a bit that she's comfortable with because for some reason the ones I tried didn't fit or made her uncomfortable in some way. I know she's got some responsiveness issues- that's not what I'm worried about. I can fix that. I have fixed that. But for example, I had a french link snaffle in her mouth with the bridle fitting and everything and just let her hang out in the round pen. No reins attached. I just watched her. Then I checked the bit a little later and lo and behold, bruising. So that had literally nothing to do with my hands on the reins. The bit just didn't fit.

Quote:
Again, I think less of your problems have anything to do with the bit ... and more to do with training.
I won't say this is always the case with bitting issues, but it usually is. Of course, the only reason a horse responds to any bit is because they were trained to. Unless someone just threw something harsh on their face to muscle them into stopping, which all her previous owners (barrel racers...) did. That's a great way to ruin a horse.

No matter how much you think you know about horses, there will always be one that'll come along and teach you something new.

Last edited by ChieTheRider; 05-06-2019 at 02:57 PM.
ChieTheRider is offline  
post #38 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 06:06 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,421
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post

1. I can control her now. This thread was posted almost three months ago. Since then she has vastly improved. Vastly. Most of the time she'll stop on a dime in a halter. Now sometimes she gets spooked or hyped up or something and then doesn't listen, and that's a training issue. We're working on that. But most of the time she stops on voice alone. We've come a long way in three months. I think she'd be ready to actually race at full speed in a week or two if I actually worked with her.
Well actually, it was only 4 days ago that you posted that she "forgot" how to stop. I would say you still have holes that need fixing and absolutely NOT ready to RUN barrels at full speed in 1 week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
The reason it's taken a long time is because I'm still a full time student and nobody else rides my horses. I've got to do it all. And she's got to have her teeth done.
Long time? I don't think 3 months is enough time, for a horse to go from uncontrollable to running barrels at full speed. That's a very short time frame to accomplish all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
Again, I can stop her. She was fine at a walk on the barrels. I wouldn't have trotted if she couldn't walk it. Then she was fine at the trot. I wouldn't have gone faster if she couldn't trot it. And she was fine at a slow lope, but it was there that it fell apart. She looked at the gate and went that direction. What frustrated me is not really that I almost fell or she didn't respond, but that a few days before I loped the pattern and she did perfectly fine. And then suddenly she went back to being a spaz. Part of it is separation anxiety from her buddy who was in the stall where she couldn't see him.
And again, all these things tells me she is absolutely not ready to be running barrels.

It is normal to have setbacks in training. It's kind of the way that horses learn. So that's okay that she had a bad day. However, I'm a pretty big stickler on having working brakes at all times no matter what. That's a hard line for me, for safety reasons.

What bit were you using on her that day? (Or what have you been using?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern.

No, she hasn't won races, I didn't say she had. I said I "wouldn't be surprised if she could". Now maybe she can't but I think it's a valid assumption that she can if she's responsive. IF. If is the big word here.
But you did say she "can beat" the barrel horses here, you made it sound like she has. That's what confused me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
The main reason I made this thread is to find a bit that she's comfortable with because for some reason the ones I tried didn't fit or made her uncomfortable in some way.
Well if you still haven't gotten her teeth done, personally, I wouldn't waste time trying so many different bits at this point in time just in case it's her TEETH that are the issue and not the bit. So make that your next priority to get her to the dentist, and then figure out the bit after that.
gottatrot and ChieTheRider like this.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.
beau159 is offline  
post #39 of 53 Old 05-06-2019, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 865
• Horses: 2
The day she had some brake issues i was riding in a sidepull. No bit.

Working on getting her teeth done. Truck is still inthe shop >:(

No matter how much you think you know about horses, there will always be one that'll come along and teach you something new.
ChieTheRider is offline  
post #40 of 53 Old 05-07-2019, 12:07 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,421
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post
The day she had some brake issues i was riding in a sidepull. No bit.
A sidepull certainly has little to no brakes. Of course, I would not ride her out in the open again with that at this point in time. Again, don't let yourself get into a situation where she could potentially run off if she tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChieTheRider View Post


But I was actually looking at those fleece/leather hackamores. I think she might like that, but I don't know. She's picky about those. I think she doesn't like the chain under the chin. When I wrap a curb chain with vetwrap or tape she does better. Her discomfort response is to ignore everything you tell her and just run. Like, I wouldn't use a Little S Hack on her.
Honestly, I was going to suggest you try a Little S Hack if you have access to one, if you prefer to go the bitless route for the time being. I think it's a matter of that since she is used to being able to run through everything, and you need to re-teach her that it's not acceptable. Whether or not she is uncomfortable, that is not an "excuse" for her to push through the bit. I would honestly use a rope nose Little S Hack because she needs to knock it off and RESPECT what you have on her head. She's going to respect that rope noseband. If you don't need to use it (not apply any pressure), then don't. But you want it available if you need it.

Is it possible that she doesn't like the chain under her chin because she either doesn't understand it or doesn't respect it? (and not that she's uncomfortable)
gottatrot likes this.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.
beau159 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bitting up w/o bitting up SketchyHorse Horse Tack and Equipment 20 04-27-2016 01:52 PM
New horse. Need info on bitting and other aids. SA Trail Rider Horse Tack and Equipment 4 04-21-2014 09:27 AM
Horse stuff for sale!! Take a look i am moving and this stuff needs to go!!! shermanismybaby3006 Tack and Equipment Classifieds 9 09-17-2009 11:17 PM
Saddle and Tack For Sale/Trade + wanted stuff *more stuff* Chicalove Tack and Equipment Classifieds 2 09-14-2009 10:36 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome