Respect under saddle? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-06-2017, 11:03 AM
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I agree that some horses can be too highly trained/responsive for a beginner, become confused with incorrectly applied cues, but this horse is not just being over reactive, but exhibiting spoiled issues, like trying to head for the out gate, and the OP is too hung up on'neck reining'
Even when riding ahorse that is extremely well trained, showing that horse on e handed, a lot of training is done using two hands, to keep that hrose correct
On a horse that tries to head for the out gate, or exhibit any other holes, not staying one hundred percent correct, ridden one handed, you go back to riding in abit that allows two hands on the reins, and some direct reining, to support any issues of not staying correct off of that neck rein alone, and the instructor should be in corporating this principle
What does the instructor advise when the horse wanders, tries to drift towards taht out gate or buddies?
A horse is going to go where his shoulders go, and reins only control ahorse from he withers forward, legs the rest. Thus, when that horse drifts, tries to run off, the instructor should be advising on how to correct that horse, make that wrong action difficult, using the right combo of reins and legs to correct the horse
Horses can be respectful on the ground, more then when ridden, for two main reasons. First, horses feel more secure when you lead them somewhere, then ask them to ride there.
Secondly, it is easier even for a relatively green horse person to demand, handle the horse on the ground, without letting nay little issues slip and not become major issues.
Unfortunately, this is not true when riding, as it takes time and experience to both feel the slightest resistance when riding, and also to correct it, so the horse does not progress from taking that proverbial inch to that proverbial mile
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post #12 of 25 Old 06-06-2017, 11:19 AM
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Curious, how does the horse ride when that instructor gets on her?
A well trained horse, that has been kept 'honest' should ride for anyone, if they apply the right cues, and that horse should also have had enough exposure to not get high riding outside
I had a youth from Germany, come over and ride my reining mare, as part of the INternational youth team.
Our Appaloosa association had sent out invitations for International youths to form a team for the Canadian National Appaloosa show. They got a larger response then anticipated, thus asked to use my mare, who I had retired as a broodmare, and who had a foal on her. This mare was very feely, having Peppy San breeding
I weaned the foal, and gave her a refresher course of about a week under saddle, before that youth from Germany arrived.
He had one week to ride her before the show, and had never ridden in reining or games before, and in which he was entered, by default, as the rest of the positions were filled
He won the flag picking and got second in reining, with the judge telling him he would have won, were his lead changes smoother. He confessed to me that he didn't set her up at all for those lead changes ,and she just did them on her own. Point being, a well trained horse, even with a beginner rider, might over react, will only perform at the level of that rider, but that horse won't bolt, weave, try to head to buddies, ect. That is a spoiled horse, or one who has learned to test the rider.
Lesson horses can become infamous for this, ridden with lots of inconsistency by different riders
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-06-2017, 07:42 PM
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Can't 'like' twice (pity there's not exclamation mark likes!) so just saying, I really like the way you put that bsms.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-06-2017, 07:45 PM
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^Yeah, that's a big point that I overlooked - if this is during lessons, what is your instructor advising/doing to prevent/correct this? It sounds like they're allowing/expecting too much from you with this horse.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-06-2017, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Not a pro nor have I dealt with hundreds of horses, so take this in that light:

Sounds like a horse who has been taught to submit by someone who is willing and able to up the pressure to a point where the horse feels it must submit. If the horse has no other reason to submit other than "rider increases pressure", and you either can not or will not increase the pressure to that point, then the horse has no reason to submit.

Too much emphasis on obedience disengages the horse's mind. That gets the horse back to thinking, "Can the rider make me?" instead of "Does listening to my rider help me?" If obedience to a cue has no more purpose than "This is what the rider wants", then why should the horse obey if the horse wants something different? And what horse can understand, easily, WHY it needs to speed up at some point in the arena, or WHY it needs to spin or stop very hard just because? What is the benefit to the horse?

The next step is to get the horse to start talking to you, which in turn means listening and responding to what the HORSE thinks. It means you may not cross that wood bridge today - and certainly won't if the only way to do it is to increase pressure until the horse gives up. You may need to back off until the horse is no longer too anxious - "She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm." - and then dismount and LEAD the horse. Would you trust someone who responds to your fear with kicking you or forcing you?

If you want a horse to think of you as a partner, you need to be a partner to the horse - and partners don't expect blind obedience.

I suggest reading through some of these journal threads:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...ay-can-431322/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...gether-622121/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...a-trot-645777/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...ntures-711762/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...people-479466/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...2015-a-536297/

In essence, you need to find a way to convince the horse you have good ideas. And not all horses are going to be interested in what you prefer to do. A friend had a stallion who was dangerous to ride until the stallion connected people riding him with things HE liked to do - travel 40 miles in a day, or work very rough cattle. Once he associated humans with that, he became my friend's all-time favorite horse and was eventually ridden by kids.

That stallion sired Trooper, who was spurred to a bloody mess by someone who wanted Trooper to cut cattle - and Trooper hated working cattle. Yet Trooper was an excellent sheep horse and a wonderful beginning rider's trail horse...once he got over being spurred. Nine years later, he still has the scars:



So a big part can be finding a horse who likes doing the things you like to do. I don't think any horse can be very competitive at a sport the horse doesn't enjoy. They'll always be beaten by a horse with similar ability who WANTS to rein, cut, race, jump, perform, ride trails, etc. If you really like doing X, and the horse shows little initiative in X...don't buy the horse. It will just frustrate you both.
The Op is not trying to rein the horse, just ride a horse that is touted to have had some reining training in the past-big difference to Trouper or any horse burned out at a job , or abused in the training for that job.
A horse that bolts towards buddies, just asked to work outside, cross a bridge, might need anew job, but first he needs someone to ride him and not allow him to drift towards friends, to weave aimlessly, versus guiding ( something ahorse will do, as a small level of resistance, when asked to ride out when he does not want to go, leave, ride in that direction
The OP is not asking for blind obedience, just for the horse to listen to cues he supposedly knows, not to try and head for the out gate, not to take charge and bolt toward buddies
She is not asking him to walk off a cliff, but to simply ride like a broke horse that understands aids, that has never learned to run through a bit
I am all for riding horses out, to keep their mind fresh, never to drill them on endless maneuvers, but I also believe, that if I ask my horse to perform,he does so, and not give me the equine version of the finger
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Last edited by Smilie; 06-06-2017 at 10:05 PM.
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-07-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
The Op is not trying to rein the horse, just ride a horse that is touted to have had some reining training in the past...

A horse that bolts towards buddies, just asked to work outside, cross a bridge, might need anew job, but first he needs someone to ride him and not allow him to drift towards friends, to weave aimlessly...

...but I also believe, that if I ask my horse to perform,he does so, and not give me the equine version of the finger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmgirl16 View Post
...Trouble is when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk....

I just want her to learn to settle under saddle and listen to me as her leader and partner, wherever we happen to be riding...

...She's better when we ride in the arena but taking her outside and asking her to do the obstacle work today seemed to completely fry her mind and amplify the "not listening" issue. She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm.
I know horses do rebel and give The Middle Hoof Salute sometimes. But I also believe what the Austrian cavalryman wrote in the 1860s - that the horse defends himself. Not just from being 'attacked', but from training that gives him no reason to WANT to be ridden.

Quote:
The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform...

...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness...

...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail....

-On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)
There is a lot in that passage that deserves attention. Most of the training I've seen, read about or watched on video focuses on getting responses to cues.

And many will also focus on the physical problems - as they should. A bit that doesn't fit, or a saddle that doesn't fit, or inconsistent cues that confuse the horse - all of those can and frequently DO cause the horse to resist. And it is important to look at those and remove the source of any physical pain that prevents the horse from listening.

But it also helps - or at least, has helped me with the few horses I've owned and worked with - to consider how the horse feels about being ridden.

Quote:
...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals.
I think horses fear far more than we humans realize. And if their rider can not take away their fear and convince them they are safe, then of course they seek the safety of the herd.

Quote:
She is not asking him to walk off a cliff, but to simply ride like a broke horse that understands aids...
I view this as a casual stroll in a very safe place. My horse viewed it as torment - as a solitary ride thru enemy territory, filled with unknown threats to his life:



What has worked with him has not been focusing on applying cues consistently (which I was well able to do before I got him), and not on body control - but simply TEACHING him that I know what is safe or not, and that I won't expose him to threats needlessly. What has also worked well is slow acclimatization, and trying to make sure I never trap him between my cues and the danger.

All of that is tough when one doesn't own the horse and ride it regularly. It also requires learning - by trial and ERROR - the difference between a horse who is afraid and a horse who just doesn't feel like doing something.

But when a horse doesn't feel like doing something, our first choice shouldn't always be to say he is disrespectful, and to accuse him of giving us The Middle Hoof Salute. The horse in the picture will give me 5-10 minutes, maybe more, of good arena time. Then he starts to act up. I can respond by saying, "Oh, you are disrespecting me! You want a fight? I'll give you one!"

Or...I can take him out on the street, we can do a 5-10 minute walk along the road, and come back...and he'll give me another 5-10 minutes of good arena work. He gets bored easily in an arena.

The mare I owned was a bit different. She would work in an arena for an hour, cheerfully, provided I never asked her to do the same exercise more than twice in a row. She would do a figure 8 without complaint, and then another. By the third, she would start resisting a little, and by the fourth she would stop, turn around and look at me, and say, "Are you LOST? Do you need a MAP?" But if I mixed things up enough, she'd happily work hard, giving it an honest effort, for an hour or more.

If, however, I said we were going to do a circle until she got it right...that was picking a fight. And she'd give me one. Poor fitting tack can cause a horse to resist. So can boredom, or being demanded to do things ad nauseum that don't make sense to them.

So BEFORE we accuse the horse of being disrespectful, or of giving us "the equine version of the finger", we need to ask ourselves if we are being disrespectful to the horse. And we also need to understand an environment that looks totally stress-free to us may well look to the horse like we are asking him to walk off a cliff.

In the winter, one of my neighbors puts a 6 foot tall inflatable penguin in their yard.

I'm not sure it is fair of me to get upset if my horse doesn't LIKE 6' tall penguins staring at him with implacable hatred in their plastic eyes! I'm not sure pushing him past it - which I could do and did - helped any. TEACHING him that the penguin wasn't staring at him with implacable hatred DID work, and we could soon stroll past it. But I first had to look at the penguin thru my horse's eyes.
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by bsms; 06-07-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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post #17 of 25 Old 06-07-2017, 12:48 PM
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This is not a green horse, needing exposure, but a horse that most likely has =mainly been arena ridden, so totally agree that the horse needs to get out, but in my books, riding a horse out that bolts, tries to do her own thing, is not the best idea, esp by a green rider
The rider is also in a lesson situation, and part of that lesson should be, in the instructor helping that person to ride the horse successfully. A horse that takes control heads for the out gate, is not a horse for someone to learn on, nor is it doing the horse any good, learning that she can run through aids when she feels like it-a common problem with lesson horses.
Sorry, bolting towards buddies is simply not acceptable
I would like to assume, at least in this case, with the OP working with a trainer, having all pain issues ruled out is a given
Your penguin example really does not have anything to do with this situation, JMO. Of course one expects horse to react,when he encounters something completely different, but one hopes to have the training, trust and yes, body control, so the horse does not follow up that spook with an attempt to bolt
I ride my horses out, even those I show, both for their own well being, and I have seen show horses that could not even be ridden from the barn to the arena, but had to be led, because they had only been arena ridden
This horse is neither good in the arena or outside. It is not a safe lesson horse.
Perhaps it needs another job, and it for sure needs an effective rider for awhile.
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-07-2017, 11:59 PM
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@bsms
the kind of riding/training you are describing is a very sensitive approach. it will work only if the rider HAS the ability to convince the horse of his/her authority, in the off chance that it comes down to a "you WILL do this" moment. admittedly, the rider does not approach every training moment this way, bit if the rider does not have that authority , in the eyes of the horse, they will not be able to offer the calm leadership that say, "It's ok, you can walk on past the Penguins".

we may say that this is a good approach, and you know that I DO feel this way,. but, never as a 'beggar'. only as a thoroughly confident, calm and tolerant leader. and, that only comes from knowing that you CAN get what you are asking from the horse, eventually.

a rider who is not with that level of authority, in the eyes of the hrose, will not be able to offer the horse even calm support. It just won't work.

consequently, in this case, this young rider has more to learn about how to become beleiveably a leader to that horse, and it won't come from just 'allowing' the horse to do what she wants. sorry, but that horse is already doing that, and it's not working out for the both of them.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-12-2017, 03:35 AM Thread Starter
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[quote=loosie;10002690]
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Originally Posted by Farmgirl16 View Post
when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk.

Hi,

As always, first & foremost, rule out/treat any pain/discomfort issues. Perhaps she has saddle pain, bit pain, sore back, sore feet... This bit especially sounds like it could be related to pain;



But it also sounds like she is a 'schoolmaster' type lesson horse? That perhaps she is just sick to death of going round an arena with beginners, and has also learned how to annoy them back... Once pain/discomfort is ruled out/treated, try to find ways for her to enjoy the 'work' you ask of her. Ensure she is effectively & adequately reinforced for the Good Stuff she does - you don't keep asking/release 'pressure' immediately, and you can also reward/positively reinforce her too.

Of course, that it sounds like she isn't your horse, is likely ridden by others, and that you are inexperienced all makes things hard/impossible to change much if any. Can you ask for a different horse that's not so resistant perhaps?
You are correct, I do not own her right now. I have been to only one to ride her this year though. I have been riding her because we do seem to have a bit of a connection and I was thinking if we got along I might like to buy her. She's been vetted and is sound. We are working on the pressure release and I do have her started on collecting up which she is doing well at. I'd like to take her out for a trail ride or something, but with the way she took off to her buddies the other day I'm worried to go back outside.
I mentioned to my instructor/her owner that maybe she is just a bit too much horse for me. He told me that my fall was the only truly awful experience I've had with her, and in the arena he says he can see an improvement in her behaviour, also inviting me out to ride her at any time free of charge. X.X It seems like such a convoluted situation...
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-12-2017, 03:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Not a pro nor have I dealt with hundreds of horses, so take this in that light:

Sounds like a horse who has been taught to submit by someone who is willing and able to up the pressure to a point where the horse feels it must submit. If the horse has no other reason to submit other than "rider increases pressure", and you either can not or will not increase the pressure to that point, then the horse has no reason to submit.

Too much emphasis on obedience disengages the horse's mind. That gets the horse back to thinking, "Can the rider make me?" instead of "Does listening to my rider help me?" If obedience to a cue has no more purpose than "This is what the rider wants", then why should the horse obey if the horse wants something different? And what horse can understand, easily, WHY it needs to speed up at some point in the arena, or WHY it needs to spin or stop very hard just because? What is the benefit to the horse?

The next step is to get the horse to start talking to you, which in turn means listening and responding to what the HORSE thinks. It means you may not cross that wood bridge today - and certainly won't if the only way to do it is to increase pressure until the horse gives up. You may need to back off until the horse is no longer too anxious - "She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm." - and then dismount and LEAD the horse. Would you trust someone who responds to your fear with kicking you or forcing you?

If you want a horse to think of you as a partner, you need to be a partner to the horse - and partners don't expect blind obedience.

I suggest reading through some of these journal threads:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...ay-can-431322/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...gether-622121/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...a-trot-645777/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...ntures-711762/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...people-479466/

https://www.horseforum.com/member-jou...2015-a-536297/

In essence, you need to find a way to convince the horse you have good ideas. And not all horses are going to be interested in what you prefer to do. A friend had a stallion who was dangerous to ride until the stallion connected people riding him with things HE liked to do - travel 40 miles in a day, or work very rough cattle. Once he associated humans with that, he became my friend's all-time favorite horse and was eventually ridden by kids.

That stallion sired Trooper, who was spurred to a bloody mess by someone who wanted Trooper to cut cattle - and Trooper hated working cattle. Yet Trooper was an excellent sheep horse and a wonderful beginning rider's trail horse...once he got over being spurred. Nine years later, he still has the scars:



So a big part can be finding a horse who likes doing the things you like to do. I don't think any horse can be very competitive at a sport the horse doesn't enjoy. They'll always be beaten by a horse with similar ability who WANTS to rein, cut, race, jump, perform, ride trails, etc. If you really like doing X, and the horse shows little initiative in X...don't buy the horse. It will just frustrate you both.
Wow, lots to take in, lol. I have been very very stuck with this and thinking about it a lot. I know I have to try to convince her that what we're doing can be done as a team. I think, in hindsight, I should have dismounted her in the paddock and walked her to get her to chill out, or maybe even a bit of lunging as it gets her to focus in a little bit more.

I have tried her with a few different things to see if she takes to anything. I've trotted her around barrels and done pole bending, as well as done obstacles inside the arena. She wasn't thrilled with obstacles to begin with but trail challenges are her owner's specialty, along with reining, so we do it. Barrels, she got pushy with her shoulder again, but I thought she may learn to enjoy it once she realizes she would be able to go. She's **** good at pole bending, she just gets overexcited and after a couple runs she'll accidentally run past the first turn. She apparently enjoyed working on cows but unfortunately we don't have access to any at the arena where she lives.
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