Should I use a martingale on my pony? - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 71 Old 05-13-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt View Post
Aha. Tom Thumb bit. I would bet dollars to donuts that's part of your problem. I will come back and type out a correct response when I have a full keyboard. I bet someone will beat me to it though.
Bottom line? TT bits are not to be used on a green horse.
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Okay, I'm back, and armed with my full keyboard.

First off, the Tom Thumb bit is not a snaffle bit. The term "snaffle" is added on by manufacturers and retailers to trick people into thinking that it is a nice, kind bit. The fact of the matter is that it isn't a snaffle, and it isn't to be used like a snaffle.

Let's talk about the cheekpiece:
With a snaffle, the rein attaches to the same hole as the headstall - therefore when you pull with one pound of pressure, the horse is going to feel one pound of pressure.
With a leverage bit, you attach the headstall to one place, and the reins to a spot below the mouthpiece, and you have a curb chain attached under the headstall, near the mouthpiece. This completely changes the dynamics of the bit; when you pull with one pound of force, depending on the length and shape of the shank, the horse feels at least two. So, when you pull with 5 pounds of force, the horse feels at least ten.
Next let's look at what happens when you pull:
With a snaffle, when you pull the cheekpiece, you are translating exactly that pull to the horse's mouth.
When you pull the rein to a leverage (shank) bit, you are pulling below the bit, which twists the mouthpiece, and engages the curb chain. This means that the signal is not equal to what you expect pulling on the rein.

Here is an article I wrote about different cheek and mouthpieces:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack...pe-bits-36522/

When you are training a horse, you want to be very - VERY - clear about your communication. You want your rein to convey exactly that signal to the mouthpiece - thus you need a true snaffle bit. A curb bit should not be used to direct-rein, or keep contact with. A curb bit should only be used when the horse has learned to neck rein.

Here is an excellent article about the Tom Thumb bit:
Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb
Please take a moment to consider this.

When you are mounting up, you are twisting the saddle, and putting lots of pressure on the horse's back; the pony might be a bit back sore. If the pony moves forwards, the usual response is to pull back on the reins... given what I've explained above, it is likely that the horse doesn't understand the extreme pressure on his mouth.

For your horse, I would recommend a full cheek french link bit; or, if you're worried about the cheeks getting stuck on anything, a Dee ring french link.
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post #62 of 71 Old 05-13-2010, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt View Post
Okay, I'm back, and armed with my full keyboard.

First off, the Tom Thumb bit is not a snaffle bit. The term "snaffle" is added on by manufacturers and retailers to trick people into thinking that it is a nice, kind bit. The fact of the matter is that it isn't a snaffle, and it isn't to be used like a snaffle.

Let's talk about the cheekpiece:
With a snaffle, the rein attaches to the same hole as the headstall - therefore when you pull with one pound of pressure, the horse is going to feel one pound of pressure.
With a leverage bit, you attach the headstall to one place, and the reins to a spot below the mouthpiece, and you have a curb chain attached under the headstall, near the mouthpiece. This completely changes the dynamics of the bit; when you pull with one pound of force, depending on the length and shape of the shank, the horse feels at least two. So, when you pull with 5 pounds of force, the horse feels at least ten.
Next let's look at what happens when you pull:
With a snaffle, when you pull the cheekpiece, you are translating exactly that pull to the horse's mouth.
When you pull the rein to a leverage (shank) bit, you are pulling below the bit, which twists the mouthpiece, and engages the curb chain. This means that the signal is not equal to what you expect pulling on the rein.

Here is an article I wrote about different cheek and mouthpieces:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack...pe-bits-36522/

When you are training a horse, you want to be very - VERY - clear about your communication. You want your rein to convey exactly that signal to the mouthpiece - thus you need a true snaffle bit. A curb bit should not be used to direct-rein, or keep contact with. A curb bit should only be used when the horse has learned to neck rein.

Here is an excellent article about the Tom Thumb bit:
Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb
Please take a moment to consider this.

When you are mounting up, you are twisting the saddle, and putting lots of pressure on the horse's back; the pony might be a bit back sore. If the pony moves forwards, the usual response is to pull back on the reins... given what I've explained above, it is likely that the horse doesn't understand the extreme pressure on his mouth.

For your horse, I would recommend a full cheek french link bit; or, if you're worried about the cheeks getting stuck on anything, a Dee ring french link.
I'm pretty sure i don't pull on the reins because i hold onto the saddle. When i'm mounting someone else's horse they pull on the other stirrup while i mount. Is that so the saddle won't slip? And may that actually help?

I used to use a sweet iron bit which had three pieces, it had a little piece in the middle.
But with that bit i didn't have control over him and he would act very naughty, and i think it hurt him cause he didn't like it in his mouth.
So we got a tomb thumb, and it works great with us and i can control him and he enjoys me riding him, and he lets me put his bridle on.

Thank u for staying on topic JustDressageIt. But there are a numerous amount of people arguing and going !!!!!

So please, everyone. Try to be nice!
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post #63 of 71 Old 05-13-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Aha. Tom Thumb bit. I would bet dollars to donuts that's part of your problem. I will come back and type out a correct response when I have a full keyboard. I bet someone will beat me to it though.
Bottom line? TT bits are not to be used on a green horse.
JDI - She expressedly said it wasn't the western type, and she is from Australia, hence I am assuming it is the Australian TT, which is a perfect starting bit. It is comparable to a full check or half spoon.

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post #64 of 71 Old 05-13-2010, 06:47 PM
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Thanks, WS. OP, can you show us a pic of the bit you're using?
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post #65 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 12:11 AM
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I believe this is the bit she is using:


Look like a SUPERSTAR, Ride like a FOUR STAR, Win like a ROCKSTAR
Eventers: Making BAD Dressage look GOOD!
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post #66 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 12:21 AM
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Fulmer bit? Fantastic bit then, and my previous post (based off the American TT) is invalid, except for the part about mouthpieces; it could be that the pony doesn't particularly like a single joint... but I doubt that is the entire problem.
I would honestly take a look at exactly how you are mounting up:
- are you poking your toe into her side?
- are you leaning heavily into the stirrup?
- even if someone is holding the other stirrup, there is quite a bit of torque on the horse's back.
- have you tried a mounting block?
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post #67 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 12:23 AM
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yeah that's what they call a TT in Australia.

Look like a SUPERSTAR, Ride like a FOUR STAR, Win like a ROCKSTAR
Eventers: Making BAD Dressage look GOOD!
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post #68 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 12:31 AM
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Horseycloe, sorry for sounding rude. I don't know you so I'm in no position to judge you, but personally I don't support young riders like yourself who are uneducated with young ponies. I've seen far too many accidents. And personally I didn't like the way you rode in the video.

I think that if you listen to the advice on here from JDI, WS etc they might help you solve your problems. But I would also seek out the help of a trainer because it just sounds like you're not qualified enough to deal with a rearer.
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post #69 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 03:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt View Post
Fulmer bit? Fantastic bit then, and my previous post (based off the American TT) is invalid, except for the part about mouthpieces; it could be that the pony doesn't particularly like a single joint... but I doubt that is the entire problem.
I would honestly take a look at exactly how you are mounting up:
- are you poking your toe into her side?
- are you leaning heavily into the stirrup?
- even if someone is holding the other stirrup, there is quite a bit of torque on the horse's back.
- have you tried a mounting block?
Yes haha. I'm using the Australian tom thumb, and i knew it was a good bit becase the person who trained Spider was using it. And he has been riding all his life! I may be poking my toe into Spider's side, thank u for that tip! I'll check if i am, but yesterday when i rode him he just stood there like he was 15 years old and couldn't move! haha. I'm going to try a mounting block, because that may help. Thank u for those tips, they r very useful
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post #70 of 71 Old 05-14-2010, 03:25 AM
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As I said in my previous post, which happened to take up a good 10 minutes of my study time so I'd appreciate it if you read it after I defended you also. Please don't ride until you have your saddle fitted, and don't get on without a mounting block.
yes your friend holds the other stirrup of their saddle when you get on their horse to stop the saddle being wrenched across the horse's back thus inflicting spinal, musculature and nervous damage to the horse. It IS a good idea to hold the stirrup. You have all the answers you need from this thread. Now go and use them and if they don't work, THEN come back and ask again with more specific details and video if possible.

Again, as I said previously, I would put my money on it that your saddle is causing him discomfort, and when you get on their enhances his discomfort by dragging the saddle across his back. You don't want to get a young pony into the habit of rearing out of pain when you get on, as it may well become firmly established in his mind set. So think of your pony's welfare, well being whatever you want to call it, and do NOT ride him until you have your saddle correctly fitted, and invest in a mounting block/crate of some description.
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