Why use harsh bits? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 12:51 PM
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My horse is a junior horse. I can show in a snaffle. I can ride w/ two hands. But he will ride in a port and with one hand. As stated before. The port is so that you can use MINIMAL contact. with LONG DROOPING reigns. You do most of your riding w/ your seat.

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post #22 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brighteyes View Post
Ok, this is a stupid question. Just a fair warning.

Alright, so I've been on this forum for a little while, and I have noticed that in every topic that has something to do with a training problem and a harsher bit, people either get fully chewed up or a serious finger wagging.

This brings me to wonder what is a 'good' reason to use a harsher bit? I mean, why doesn't everyone just ride in a D ring snaffle if it's really that bad? How come we have harsher bits if we 'aren't suppose to use them'?

Basicly, I'm asking for 'good' reasons to use a harsher bit.
Let's try to get back on topic and help Brighteyes out, why don't we. Sorry for getting off topic.

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post #23 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 12:53 PM
 
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So you CAN show in a snaffle? In western? I just wanted to know in case I go to show anytime soon..In western that is.
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post #24 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 12:58 PM
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IF your horse is under 5 years of age...

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
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post #25 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny06 View Post
Mmm..Horses don't have them same lovey-dovey friendship feeling like people do. Sure, a bond--but as soon as your horse sees that alfalfa cube, he's all 'love'.
I'd rather be respected by my horse than 'loved'. IMO, though.
I want to politely disagree with you. Both of my horses come to me for attention, pet, and talk, not just for carrot or cookie (in fact, same with my neighbor's OTTB: he's just pleased with attention). My paint (who came to me as abuse case yearling) will NOT come to stranger for carrots/cookies/cubes/anything. And when I bring her to the nice lush pasture (which happens once/day for couple hours) she'll follow me around in many cases if I walk around for something ignoring the grass. My qh is totally different though: she won't sacrifice grass for my attention. Lol! What I'm trying to say here it depends on personality a lot.

I do agree that "love" or "not love" but the respect should come first.



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post #26 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by farmpony84 View Post
This is way off topic but it's the first time I've heard a parrelli person say that sometimes you need a more severe bitch...
Woohoo, typo.

Different bits have their time and place.

Coming from an English H/J point of view (seems like most posters on this thread are western), sometimes you need to bit up when jumping.

Doesn't matter how well trained your horse is, some of them get 'over stimulated' when jumping and need a tich stronger bit to get them back quickly.

For example, riding a strong jumper, you're coming in a bit over the pace to a triple. With a snaffle, you might have to sit way back and half halt HARD to get your horse back enough (and fast enough) that you don't both eat dirt. That big a move can seriously throw your balance off, as well as screw up your horse's balance and stride. If you have a stronger snaffle (twisted mouthpiece), or a curb (i.e. pelham, I hate kimberwickes), or a gag (depending on your horse) you can just half halt lightly, and make everything much smoother.
You also have to fight with them a lot less, which is better for everyone in the long run.

In the hunter ring, snaffles are usually preferred in a "ooh, look at how quiet my horse is!" kind of way. However, there are some 'interesting' mouthpieces that look like a simple snaffle from the outside (for example: Double Twisted Wire Full Cheek Snaffle Bit Horse Bit - Dover Saddlery.)

Sometimes pelhams are used just to fine tune cues. Instead of having to move your hand, you'll simply have to close your fingers, and you'll get the same effect.

Pelhams are currently in vogue for eq for the exact same reason.

For dressage, I see no reason for using stronger bits. Not only are they illegal in the show ring, but there's usually no training advantage.

That being said, certain instances certain bits can be beneficial. In the right hands pelhams can help a horse who leans, or an elevator can help a horse who sucks behind the bit. But these are temporary schooling tools to fix specific problems.

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post #27 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 02:34 PM
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^----agreed. The bit is always only as harsh as the hands, what I don't understand is why people aren't more educated about bits a switch around more often? I know which bit will provide leverage, and say I want to work on transition's maybe I will ride in a pelham, or today were going to work on going to the jumps really soft, let's use the happy mouth, or today were doing the jumper fence's he likes to buck after, lets use a gag or a hackamore. It's all about having very educated hands. Don't switch out of a snaffle unless you can put your hands in the crest and lock them there. I don't mean a beginner grab mane, but an advanced I use the neck because I can keep my hands at my most stable there. I dunno how to explain it, but my hands are quiet, still, and soft. You need an educated trainer or rider to discipline you of this with hours of lessons. or I highly doubt you have it. Hands are the first thing I look at when examining a rider, and very few people who casually ride IMO pass the test. I have seen balanced riders with wretched hands, so make sure some unbiast evaluates you, are they even, still, are you balanced on them? Otherwise, switch bits away and have fun. People don't know much about bits anymore, I mean can anyone guess what a Waterford Snaffle is or good for? I like it, and it's mild, but I don't consider a Tom Thumb harsh. Recently I switched a horse to a rubber tom thumb that was being ridden by beginners. Why? Glad you asked, because he was being goosed forward into a canter by their leg and then wouldn't stop. He's a bit hot, that's all, I wanted them to have more breaks. Is it going to ruin his mouth? I hope not, I can stop him in a snaffle still, but what am I supposed to do? Tell them they can't trot until their leg is absolutely still so he doesn't try to canter? They would never learn that way. Am I constantly telling them to grab mane, yes, so wag fingers away, but sometimes a bit of forginemess from a bit stronger bit can be the best for the team. Make sense? Hope not.

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post #28 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TroubledTB View Post
^ what am I supposed to do? Tell them they can't trot until their leg is absolutely still so he doesn't try to canter? They would never learn that way. .
Actually "yes"... or put them on a more forgiving horse. The possibility of ruining a horse by him having to endure mixed signals is not helping anyone. Using a strong bit to stop or slow down a horse because the rider's seat and/or legs are telling him to go is not teaching the rider and is ruining the horse.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

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post #29 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 02:58 PM
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You can't jump in the water and not expect to make a splash. I don't have another horse with any training on it, so should I put them on the green horses that are safe but very confused? Or just tell them to give up all together? I think it is far more beneficial for a ten year old horse who is hot to be asked to forgive a harsher bit than to confuse a quieter green horse. Even if I did have an Ideal Horse, it's not the point. I was lucky enough to have someone educate me while probably totally screwing up one horse or another, and having it just deal. It doesn't ruin a horse to have a harsh bit, it just can cause unwanted side effects that can be discussed later. If he was head shaking, rearing, or refusing to go forward, I would use caution, but he's now braking the way he's supposed to. We have to expect our horses to sometimes be as forgiving as we are of them. What is with all this painless horsemanship? It's like no horse has ever stepped on me, or I've never been sore from a horse pulling on my hands, why does everthing have to be completely painless for it to be right? I get sore, I get rubs, I get hurt, I fall off, I expect my horse to show at least as much dedication as I do. Sorry to rant, but for me, it's no pain, no gain sometimes. And believe me, these ladies are walking away sore after every lesson.

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post #30 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 04:10 PM
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You have a choice. They don't. That's the difference.

If the rider is goosing the horse forward with their legs at the trot, stick them on the longe line and take away their reins. Seriously, that's what I would do. Until they can learn to sit quietly, they need to only be focusing on that, and nothing else.

Plus, the biggest problem I have is about the Tom Thumb in itself. Not that it's a harsh bit, but it's a BAD bit. Trouble with Tom Thumb explains it quite well.

Compassion for the horse above all else. If that means insulting an ego for the benefit of the horse, so be it.

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