Why use harsh bits? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 04:53 PM
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FYI I'm using an english Tom Thumb, not a western one, which I didn't realize until this post, they are quite different, it's also rubber mouthed. Longing without reins is great, I do it, but I have to break it up a bit, and they do about ten minutes of trotting, nothing serious. Anyways, not going to blaber on defending myself, I know it's appropriate with this horse, in this situation, they have a seperate rein to the curb, but then again, some of you guys are purists, I'm not, so your not going to convince me otherwise just as I won't convince you.

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post #32 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 05:23 PM
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On my old QH gelding Dunny I used a pelham because that was all that he would listen to. Sometimes when you get an older horse it's hard to teach them a new trick. Dunny's mouth was a classic "dead mouth" from his years of being ridden by the proverable scary barrel racing rider that had him in a twisted wire bit. Years of getting his mouth yanked off made him pretty dead in the face.

When it came time to show I did show him in a snaffle (dressage rules), but I did almost everything with my seat because he would act like there was not a bit in his mouth.
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post #33 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 06:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroubledTB View Post
FYI I'm using an english Tom Thumb, not a western one, which I didn't realize until this post, they are quite different, it's also rubber mouthed. Longing without reins is great, I do it, but I have to break it up a bit, and they do about ten minutes of trotting, nothing serious. Anyways, not going to blaber on defending myself, I know it's appropriate with this horse, in this situation, they have a seperate rein to the curb, but then again, some of you guys are purists, I'm not, so your not going to convince me otherwise just as I won't convince you.
Great attitude
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post #34 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroubledTB View Post
You can't jump in the water and not expect to make a splash. I don't have another horse with any training on it, so should I put them on the green horses that are safe but very confused? Or just tell them to give up all together? I think it is far more beneficial for a ten year old horse who is hot to be asked to forgive a harsher bit than to confuse a quieter green horse. Even if I did have an Ideal Horse, it's not the point. I was lucky enough to have someone educate me while probably totally screwing up one horse or another, and having it just deal. It doesn't ruin a horse to have a harsh bit, it just can cause unwanted side effects that can be discussed later. If he was head shaking, rearing, or refusing to go forward, I would use caution, but he's now braking the way he's supposed to. We have to expect our horses to sometimes be as forgiving as we are of them. What is with all this painless horsemanship? It's like no horse has ever stepped on me, or I've never been sore from a horse pulling on my hands, why does everthing have to be completely painless for it to be right? I get sore, I get rubs, I get hurt, I fall off, I expect my horse to show at least as much dedication as I do. Sorry to rant, but for me, it's no pain, no gain sometimes. And believe me, these ladies are walking away sore after every lesson.
I think that shows a very poor attitude. If you don't have the right horse, I don't think you should be giving lessons and it does ruin a horse to have a harsh bit running through the reins to a pair of uneducated hands. What are your "students" learning? You may think something special but what I hear is kids that aren't learning the right way to ride by a teacher who has no respect for her horse if pain is in any way involved.

If you are getting sore from a horse pulling on your hands, you have a horse that needs an education not a harsher bit.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

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post #35 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroubledTB View Post
Recently I switched a horse to a rubber tom thumb that was being ridden by beginners. Why? Glad you asked, because he was being goosed forward into a canter by their leg and then wouldn't stop. He's a bit hot, that's all, I wanted them to have more breaks. Is it going to ruin his mouth? I hope not
Putting the beginner on hot horse (whether it's with harsh bit or not) is very unsafe. All I can say poor horse... And yes, they can ruin your horse mouth, and they can get hurt too if horse will be done with forgiveness and buck them off or (even better) rear and flip over.



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post #36 of 53 Old 07-07-2009, 11:19 PM
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I agree with going back to basics before going to a stronger bit. Sometimes, a stronger bit is necessary depending on the horse.
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post #37 of 53 Old 07-08-2009, 01:50 AM
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I only ride english so I can't comment on the western bits.
I would only use the term harsher on a couple of english bits - the rest I would call stronger and I would use them for a specific purpose.
A Weymouth set are mainly used in dressage as they give better communication with the horse.
I have also ridden in a Kimblewick , I don't know about the rest of you but when you're riding a 16.2H hunter you need something extra for brakes and steering. When the horses get together on a hunt you have to try and put safety first , and sometimes extra schooling just isn't enough.

I would love to see most of the ' natural horsemanship ' people try to control their horse bridleless when 20 - 30 horses go galloping across the countryside ( I think they would last about 30 seconds )

Like most things saddlery most bits are mis-understood and it the rider that is harsher not the bit
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post #38 of 53 Old 07-08-2009, 01:59 AM
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I was simply trying to answer the original posters question, as to when and why I would use a harsher bit, and these responses are exactly what she is talking about. If anyone dares use something stronger than a snaffle, they are ridiculed. If my arms get sore because the horse needs an education, that is probably what I am trying to provide, but it takes time and sometimes I have to suffer. If I said he was hot, then my mistake, he is kind of hot, and riders who are learning to post don't always know how to keep their leg perfectly still. But the horses that I have to work with are provided for kids with no experience or opportunity to work with horses, and I don't have much choice. Is he taking off regularly? No, but he did scare me and someone else when he wouldn't stop right away. I can ride and canter him perfectly, he is well trained, leg yeilds ect. but he does respond well to leg. If any of you aren't any more educated on an english tom thumb than I was on a western one, perhaps you should look into it also. It is not a severe bit, and as I already stated he is not uncomfortable in it, he has hardly noticed. So I would like all of you who say that these people do not deserve to learn about horses and how to do more than walk around the ring which many of them have done for years, you tell them. I for one, want them to build up proper muscling so they can have educated hands, seat and leg. In order to do that we must do more than walk. They have already done that. They ride with a crop across their wrists to keep them straight and even and get them paying attention to where bothj hands are, also helps teach about outside rein, so I think I am focusing on educating their hands enough. But what I am seeing is people less tolerant of beginners than the horses they are riding. They are getting feed, loved, exercised and all for the price of carrying a bit that encourages him to stop. I always start in a snaffle, but I am not afraid to admit that I will move into something different according to situation. They have to learn some how, and it should be fun. As for my attitude, fine, but I am just willing to speak about the original question, not have my methods questioned.

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post #39 of 53 Old 07-08-2009, 02:05 AM
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BTW I'm tired of hearing how horses are ruined all the time. They are far from ruined, if people weren't ruining horses all the time trainers would have no business. Schooling should be common and needing someone more advanced ride your horse once in a while to tune them up is far from having ruined them.

Troubled TB ~"A thorn by any other name will ***** just as deep." @-'--,---
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post #40 of 53 Old 07-08-2009, 11:07 AM
 
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^^ And sorry to say, but you are the kind of people that ruin them.

Putting a harsher bit in their mouth when it's very easy just to work with them in the ring in a snaffle? Tom Thumb Bits are severe, less severe of course in the right hands, but they ARE severe. I thought that they were the BEST bits when I first started using them. But little by little my horse get very unresponsive and tossed his head something horrible. Why NOT just change the bit? It's not that hard, really. WORK with the horse, not just put a dumb piece of harsher metal in their mouth and say 'ok'. You will probably see results.
Now how do you get ridiculed by a bigger snaffle? And who by? What dose it matter anyway?

But whatever. It's apparent you are not going to listen to what anyone has to say. I'm basically wasting my breath.
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