Abuse or not abuse - A spin off thread - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
 120Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 12:24 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Virginia USA
Posts: 2,490
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirtHotTeez View Post
The bolding is mine.

My question on the original thread for this was: It looked to me like the horse was going to sleep/ deprived of oxygen, was the horse doped? Heart problems? So the 'rushing' 'lurching' the horse was kicked forward and hauled back. To me the girls bad temper, while disgraceful, is the secondary issue. That horse did not stumble in the ordinary way, it went down.

Blaming the trainer is utterly ridiculous and getting way too PC. Nobody has total control of another person EVER, including your own kids, let alone a student who is not even under your direct supervision during a lesson but out on her own in the show ring. How can the girls spat of bad temper be the trainers fault. Lets keep some perspective. I don't understand why people want to give their freedom away, control by this person or that authority.

I think there was something wrong with the horse. If the owner/ rider was unaware of a problem, she thought the horse was misbehaving. One usually feels obliged to finish an event so one continues if there appears to be nothing wrong, we don't automatically assume something dreadful is going on, so a vet check probably would not cross the girls mind at that point. Possibly if a steward had seen, they may have questioned it, but again, they are not expecting that sort of trouble either. And the episode of bad temper rather distracted from what was going on with the horse.

So we harp on about this incident, setting it as an example of what is unacceptable, but the reality is that every day all over the world this sort of behaviour goes on, and you want witch-hunt one girl for it? Ideal, obviously not but there are horses that have to do daily work with not enough feed, bad if any hoof care, obscene bits that are badly used. . . so, perspective. 'Punishment' does not have to be hung, drawn and quartered. A steward saying to a person, "thats not acceptable, if it happens again you are finished for the day" is perfectly ok.

The word 'abuse' is bandied around willy nilly these days and is rather losing its impact. How about we keep it for what it really means. I was on jury service a few years ago for an 'abuse' case. It was a waste of taxpayer money. Two neighbours who had been lovers and partners in a small business that folded, squabbling over an issue and one touches the other, who files for 'abuse'. THAT makes me sick.

I would like to think the incident with the girl we have been speaking of was a one-off incident. Chances are it happens at home sometimes. So if the FEI spoke to the girl I like to think they have recommended something constructive. We will never know, and nor should we. Here is a shocking thought to some of you younger people - everything is NOT our business, just because we have social media. And just because it is not 'announced' doesn't mean it didn't happen (I am talking about consequences here)

I have not read the fact sheet. I just can't handle that right now.

I agree with something being wrong with the horse, it was very odd the way he looked to be falling asleep then suddenly went down.

Trainer's are responsible for the methods they teach their students, but obviously not responsible for the student's tantrums. The girl either taught herself that technique, was taught the technique by another mentor, OR it was a one-off incident. No way of knowing without observing more footage of the girl on this horse or working with her on a face-to-face basis. If the trainer taught her to use such a method, then yes the blame is also on the trainer.

I'm assuming the rest of your post was not directed at me, as I am in complete agreement with it. I said myself 'witch-hunting' this girl is ridiculous, as well as saying that she deserved to be hurt or banned from showing. A disqualification certainly would not have been over the top. I don't classify this as outright abuse either-bad horsemanship, yes.

I agree with your last paragraph as well. I don't even have FB, HF is the closest thing I have to social media.

The fact sheet is stomach-turning...

"You can do something wrong for thirty years and call yourself experienced, you can do something right for a week and experience more than someone who spent thirty years doing the wrong thing." ~WhattaTroublemaker
horseluvr2524 is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 12:39 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,020
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SorrelHorse View Post
I think that beyond the obvious, there is also a certain situational aspect.

I will give a horse who I think deserves it a whopping. However many smacks I think I need to get my point across. I always try to get it done with less, but if more is needed I will step up and go to war. I don't think this behavior is out of "temper" or cruelty, I think it's born out of understanding horse hierarchy and knowing that when a horse is charging at me, mouth open and ears pinned, I'd rather get it once with a stock whip and let it learn its lesson than hope precious pony over there backs off and doesn't kick my head in.

To a certain degree I also think horses respond differently to pressure. I have Selena, who is literally the deadest horse to ever live. Has been since she was born. Nothing happened to her to make her that way, except letting her get too gentle as a colt. Now she's a terrorist. You could kick, whip, kiss, cluck, beat the snot out of her and she might not even bat an ear for you. I spent a long time of sweating and cursing to get her to be responsive to me, and still when it gets in the heat of the moment I swear to god she doesn't even feel my whip. In moments like those, I'll give one or two good hard whacks to get her attention. Then she will go off the light cue again. Is that considered abuse? I don't think so.

There's a lot of factors to consider....
agree lots of facts to consider when it comes to the personality/disposition of the horse. some horses you can't raise your voice or even over cue they have a meltdown,others you have to be much more forceful to have them pay attention & respect you. Problem is you have to take into consideration horses demeanor when training/riding they all don't respond to same training the same that's wear a good rider/trainer will pick up on what the horse is telling them & structure the training to better fit individual.
Mulefeather likes this.

There are Horse Crazy People,then there is Crazy People with horses...Know the Difference !!
paintedpastures is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 01:15 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 2,038
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseluvr2524 View Post
I agree with something being wrong with the horse, it was very odd the way he looked to be falling asleep then suddenly went down.

Trainer's are responsible for the methods they teach their students, but obviously not responsible for the student's tantrums. The girl either taught herself that technique, was taught the technique by another mentor, OR it was a one-off incident. No way of knowing without observing more footage of the girl on this horse or working with her on a face-to-face basis. If the trainer taught her to use such a method, then yes the blame is also on the trainer.

I'm assuming the rest of your post was not directed at me, as I am in complete agreement with it. I said myself 'witch-hunting' this girl is ridiculous, as well as saying that she deserved to be hurt or banned from showing. A disqualification certainly would not have been over the top. I don't classify this as outright abuse either-bad horsemanship, yes.

I agree with your last paragraph as well. I don't even have FB, HF is the closest thing I have to social media.

The fact sheet is stomach-turning...
Correct, it was not aimed at you. Trying to keep it general :L

IMO the girl was not 'taught' this 'technique'. She lost the plot. Straight out temper. Disqualified from what? the event? Her chance of winning that event hit rock bottom. The show? Maybe, but I don't think so. Lets try and build people up, not kick them when they are down. A talking to from 'authority' (in this case FEI) with a verbal warning would clip most peoples wings. Most people don't feel too proud when they have lost control.

bsms, karliejaye, BearPony and 2 others like this.
ShirtHotTeez is offline  
post #24 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 01:52 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
The main point here is being missed
This occurred at a show venue, which in turn is run under rules
Thus, all the various abuse that occurs in backyards, out on open trails, or anywhere that person is not riding under rules, does not apply to this incident

JUdges are expected to judge, not as to their own personal opinion, but according to their interpretation of the rules
Likewise, the show committee, is bound to follow rules, as per to what is considered abuse, under the guideline of their association, and not according to their own opinion

Thus, since there is a video, if the person who took that video, instead of posting it on the internet, should have stood behind their conviction, and put in a formal protest to the show committee.
That video could then have been reviewed, without all the emotion it has generated, and an informed opinion, based on the rules that show is run under, could have been made
If the protest was upheld, then disciplinary action could have been taken
On the other hand, if it was decided that the video did not show abuse, as per rules interpretation, then the person who submitted the protest and video, would have forfeited the fee for making a protest
It is really no different, if you call the SPCA for a suspected abuse, as they will officially decide if action should be taken, and that your concern was merited
Smilie is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 01:55 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedpastures View Post
agree lots of facts to consider when it comes to the personality/disposition of the horse. some horses you can't raise your voice or even over cue they have a meltdown,others you have to be much more forceful to have them pay attention & respect you. Problem is you have to take into consideration horses demeanor when training/riding they all don't respond to same training the same that's wear a good rider/trainer will pick up on what the horse is telling them & structure the training to better fit individual.
All of this is a mote point, as we are not talking of something happening at a training facility, but at avenue which is run under rules, and not just the actual performance, but as to what is considered general horse handling acceptance at that venue
Smilie is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 01:57 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 8,702
• Horses: 12
At the end of the day if the horse is happy, healthy and well fed then I don't consider a training or correction style abuse even if I don't agree with the method.

R.I.P. JC 5/19/85 - 12/9/14. You made my life better.
JCnGrace is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 08:14 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,278
• Horses: 0
Being a novice, I've held onto the reins a few times just like Penelope did. It happened for a different reason, namely horse lurching forward and me losing balance - instinctively a just grabbed. I'm sure you've all seen begginers do it. I wouldn't classify it as abuse - even if just to make myself feel better.

My point is, if the end result for the horse is the same, ie. getting hit in the mouth, why would the reason behind it determine whether it's abuse or not?
I'm not sure what the answer is.
Golden Horse and BearPony like this.
Horsef is offline  
post #28 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 09:31 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW UK
Posts: 15,144
• Horses: 0
Generally horses are pretty forgiving. Thank heaven for that!

We all make mistakes, we should learn from those mistakes.

Severity of corrections should be determined by the sin and never administered in temper.

Say a horse kicked out at me I would get after it, lots of growling, arm waving and a whack with whatever was to hand. Generally speaking I have not actuall hurt the horse but I sure as heck have scared the wits out of him! Once that punishment is over I carry on as if nothing had happened. It is never any good holding resentment.

More than once I have seen very thin horses, owners are novices, there is evidence of plenty of hay in the field. With the right approach to the owners you can get to find out what is wrong, generally it would be very sharp teeth, get those done and all is well. What I call cruelty through ignorance.

There is also what I would class as cruelty through selfishness. When a horse is either old or sick and the owners keep it going because they cannot bear the thought of having it euthanised.

If I see an old horse struggling to get up several times then I will have it put down, I would rather it went on than find it exhausted after struggling for several hours to get up without anyone knowing.

If a horse is sick and I know it wants to go on then I will fight alongside it to give it a chance. When you have been around them for a leg time then you know when they have given up the life fight and you need to let them go.
bsms, gottatrot, BearPony and 3 others like this.
Foxhunter is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 10:56 AM
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CT USA an English transplant
Posts: 33,841
• Horses: 3
To go back to the thread that sparked this one - the opinion that's being shared by many people on other sites that are talking about that incident is that if someone is capable of loosing their temper and lashing out so aggressively and so readily in a public place over something as simple a horse stumbling (because she was wasn't riding it properly) what is she like when no one is looking?
Abuse comes in many forms - from neglect through to sheer brutality and its up to the caring public to report these things ASAP if anything is to be done to stop it
The FEI certainly needs to review its policy on reviewing things and it needs to review the way its rules are written so incidents like the one with Bertram Allen who was disqualified because he accidentally caught his horse with a spur when his leg went back too far at some point on the course - the video was evidence that he'd never used the spurs excessively at any point was very clear
A similar thing happened to UK dressage rider Anna Ross Davies who has videos of her horse's test that clearly show no sign of any blood in around her horses mouth but when the horse was checked after the test - the 'bit check' some blood was seen which could easily have come from the horse biting its tongue when they were opening its mouth but she was still disqualified
And yet a horse that's got blood dripping from its mouth in an FEI endurance competition was not disqualified
These photos are from her public complaint about the way things are being handled, her own horse's mouth as it came out of the ring, Bertram's horse and the endurance horse
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capturefb.JPG (40.9 KB, 57 views)
jaydee is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 04-01-2016, 12:30 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central Hill Country Texas
Posts: 5,551
• Horses: 5
I'm going to say this and then go hide under a sturdy object. JMO.

I don't know, and this is where personal perception plays a big role, blood after a ride for any reason tells me that perhaps a change needs to be made in either the gear used or the way the horse is being ridden?

I don't know that I'd qualify a bitten tongue or a cut from a bit as "abuse" necessarily, but most certainly, a situation where some changes should be at least seriously contemplated by the rider.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, but if it is happening enough that it is almost considered commonplace/acceptable in a discipline, then it might be time to stop and think about making some changes? Just my two cents and certainly debatable.
Foxhunter likes this.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


Reiningcatsanddogs is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
abuse? uffa New to Horses 18 06-02-2014 10:00 AM
Possible abuse? Sinsaint Horse Protection 3 05-23-2011 03:52 PM
I want more abuse. Citrus English Riding 18 06-22-2010 11:14 AM
its this abuse? HELP!!! Erin_And_Jasper Horse Protection 19 08-07-2008 12:01 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome