Accepting criticism, ideas and the reality that your way is not the only way. - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 07:27 AM
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So many great posts.

I have to use a trainer, I also take lessons and board my horse, so believe you me, I get enough criticism for everyone here! And I am given more "help" than you can imagine.

I have to be humble, and for me this is not hard b/c I KNOW my limitations when it comes to training a young horse, so with trainers I respect or owners I know to be good horsemen, I am as open as can be to suggestions and alike.

But, when I am given advice from those I see beat their horses into listening, or am told "you're ruining that horse" b/c I won't jump her at 3 1/2, I totally disregard it. Strangely, these are the remarks that will stick in my head though, and as a person, I had to really get over that.

So no longer will you find me sitting on the tack trunk sobbing my eyes out - I learned exactly what was said in the OP early on, I only wish those that I am surrounded by understood it as well!
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post #32 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for continuing the conversation guys. By no means am I saying to be harsh/rough/yell/etc, especially over the net - there isn't the room for interpretation in typed words. In real life where one can read body language and truly know their trainer/coach/mentor, there's much more room for that.

Over my lifetime I have had some TOUGH coaches. Many that would make a lot of people feel like walking (or riding) away but having stuck through it with those coaches and trainers, it made me a much tougher, stick to it horse(wo)man. I don't get intimidated and I don't give up, I thank those who were tough on me for that. These weren't just local, lower level trainers either for those who would say treating students like that will cut a trainer's career short, earn them a bad rep, etc....I'm talking hall of fame trainers. Many long gone and what I wouldn't give to be able to ride with them again as an adult and I'd gladly let them yell, stomp, cuss and pick me apart until their heart's content.

That style of course, isn't for everyone nor should it be. Nor should it be a trainer/coaches style for every rider. We need to adapt to each individual and each horse. I am pretty laid back and very positive reinforcement with my beginners & littlest riders UNTIL they are more advanced and wanting to make bigger strides towards improvement and where they want to go as far as showing goes. I am not going to nitpick equitation/horsemanship with a rider who has a goal of being a safe, secure trail rider but when it's someone who wants to compete more seriously or has bigger goals to get to, I'm much, much tougher. It works for me and for my students. I have lost only a few students over the years and they were all asked to leave. Most that ride with me are with me for a long time (I'm now teaching the kids of the kids I've taught) so I must not be too mean They do call me the showmanship nazi though....



Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
My trainer rarely critisizes. She'll mostly let you continue doing things the way you do them if you like. But, She models how she thinks things get done the best, and if you want what she has, you ask how to do what she does. Pretty simple.
I would love to watch a lesson. I can't work that way. I feel that I am being paid to find the flaws and fix them. If I don't tell someone what that flaw is especially when they don't recognize the flaw on their own to ask about, how do we make a game plan to fix it? I could let my students watch me ride all day and they will get less from that than me talking, picking apart, discussing & demonstrating (I often ride and coach at the same time so I can show not just talk). The differences in riding between myself and one of my beginner students especially is so vast and they aren't advanced enough to be able to pick up on the small nuances, cues & adjustments I make - if I am doing things right most of that stuff is virtually invisible. My life's goal has been to be the quietest handed, steady eddie, you won't see that correction because my horse is so tuned in rider. A beginner or early in their learning rider wouldn't pick up on them.

Good stuff guys!!!
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post #33 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
George Morris is a jumping trainer (not talking to you like you are an idiot, but I wouldn't know who a reiner trainer is). He was just the US Olympic coach. He often calls people idiots, he yells, he just says it as it is.
GM gives clinics here from time to time (I know 2 barns he came to). May be I have to take one one day to see if he does call indeed (I know several people who took clinics with him and noone complained).

Personally I'd never take yelling or criticizing as an offense. IMHO it's much better to work with not-sugar-coating trainer and progress, then waste my money on someone "nice" who doesn't keep me moving. However I don't like much criticizing from someone I have no respect for or someone with no experience still behaving like "know-it-all" (although I'm OK as long as they do it nice ).

So to me it's both - how you criticize and who's critisizing.




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"How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours."
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post #34 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 09:45 AM
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Alex S I refuse to allow anyone to yell at me or call me names without a challenge. I set boundaries an d enforce them.
I treat people the way I expect them to treat me. With respect. I demand this.
I do volunteer work and a few of my co workers are very intense and blunt.
I have no problem with that. However when they raise their voice or demand something I firmly state that " I am not your dog, wife or child, YOU dont yell at me. I yell back. Talk to me like an adult and I might do as you suggest."
As an officer in the USAF I can assure you I never raised my voice to get things done.
If you call me or anyone else around me a "name" I am liable to ask you Who the FBOMB are you talking to. Shalom
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post #35 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
Does that depend though on who the people are? Here for sure we need to be polite with each other and that's a good ideal, but in the outside world, does it matter.

George Morris is a jumping trainer (not talking to you like you are an idiot, but I wouldn't know who a reiner trainer is). He was just the US Olympic coach. He often calls people idiots, he yells, he just says it as it is. I don't think that's a bad thing. If he told me I was an idiot, he'd likely be right in comparison to him, he has no tolerance of fools and why should he at his level.

If George Morris called me an idiot, I would be basking in the glory of his presence. Some people might feel that way about people I consider idiots like Tom Cruise.

I guess my point is that it depends on who is saying it.

For me personally I prefer a straight shooter, I don't have to second guess anything, I know exactly where I stand. I like that. Much like a dog, I suppose.
Perhaps this man, GM, believes that those that seek his tutelage are not so ill-bred and mentally challenged that they walk away from any given session believing his primary goal was to instruct them to call people idiots in any and all settings for the purpose of making them better riders/jumpers. If that is what they take from his instruction, he is not misusing the word.

I have read multiple posts that lead me to believe the horse in question, or horses in general, wasn’t /weren’t considered. This seems very odd to me since it is a horse forum. That is my opinion, not a riding/training skill, and although I feel the two (considering the horse, and horsemanship) are inextricably intertwined – I would not expect some posters to be able to know the difference between sentient and brain dead, much less opinion, philosophy, and fact. Hence, I do not expect them to be able to exchange ideas in a civil manner.

If I am doing something wrong on horseback, I hope someone raises their voice so that I can hear them..yell if necessary. If they have to call me names to get my attention...then please do. But, my hearing is excellent and I don't expect to be yelled at and called names at the dinner table afterwords while discussing the effort.

My horses have been barefoot for decades. None has ever gone lame. I use to take a lot of “criticism” for my personal preference in hoof care, now it is the “in thing”. Sometimes you have to stand by your convictions and live and let live.

And, just so there is no misinterpretation of my typed words - nothing in this post was directed at you.
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There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.
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post #36 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 01:24 PM
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I can assure you that if GM were instructing a member of the Royal Family or one of Obama's daughters he would refrain from calling someone an idiot.
I would consider someone calling me or anyone else an idiot as verbal abuse .
Then again if the body language of the person was relaxed and not qaggressive then the menaing would be different..

Verbal abuse and emotional abuse go hand in hand and only escalate if not nipped in the bud.
If any trainer or instuctor only yelled and put people down to get theor pont acrosse then I would have an adult conversation with them. Explaining that I found that type of attitude unacceptable.
If I continued lessons after that it would depend on the way the instructor repsonded. Shalom
If any instructor or trainer deemed me an idiot and could only yell to get their point across then He and i would have a talk
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post #37 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 05:35 PM
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I don't know db, in the instance of an accomplished instructor, I make an exception. For two reasons. One, they are accomplished and have a lot to offer, but are not necessary the best at instruction (patience, choice of words, people skills, etc.,). And, b/c is is often hard to hear in an arena and real time communication is key...so brevity is almost necessary to "pin point" the moment you lapsed. Now, if the man in addition to yelling "idiot", never said something equally as brief (e.g., "yes!") when perfection had been achieve, he couldn't be effective.

There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.
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post #38 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians View Post
I can assure you that if GM were instructing a member of the Royal Family or one of Obama's daughters he would refrain from calling someone an idiot.
I would consider someone calling me or anyone else an idiot as verbal abuse .
Then again if the body language of the person was relaxed and not qaggressive then the menaing would be different..

Verbal abuse and emotional abuse go hand in hand and only escalate if not nipped in the bud.
If any trainer or instuctor only yelled and put people down to get theor pont acrosse then I would have an adult conversation with them. Explaining that I found that type of attitude unacceptable.
If I continued lessons after that it would depend on the way the instructor repsonded. Shalom
If any instructor or trainer deemed me an idiot and could only yell to get their point across then He and i would have a talk
I taught small business and finance seminars and workshops for over 20 years, and although I consider myself reasonably competent, I don't consider myself really top notch. Instruction/teaching requires the instructor to be both an educator and a motivator. In my experience, only a few people have both skill sets, which is why there are so few good instructors and teachers. Too often, teachers and instructors, just as supervisors and managers, are selected on the basis of technical knowledge, experience, and education, without regard to the skill sets they need to actually do their job well...
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post #39 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 07:12 PM
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Alright, I now only have one question.

MHFQ- want to come be my trainer? xD

if there is anything that I feel like I'm not 'up to par' about, its riding of all things. Its just so hard to find a GOOD riding coach in my area (especially because of my financial issues) so with the exception of the 12 lessons I took earlier this year, I've really had very little formal training. Some pointers from trainers at our farm, sure. And I can ride enough to satisfy the need at our farm, but I'm definitely not 'good' xD driving? Sure. Horse health and anatomy? I've got it. Feed or tack uses? I'm a dictionary. I'm even pretty darned good at teaching the young ones all of their ground training. In the saddle though, I'm less than stellar.

Can I just clone you so that I can have one of you in Texas? I would LOVE to have a trainer that was willing to demonstrate things on their horse instead of just expect me to know what its supposed to look like. I'm very visual so sometimes I have a hard time picturing what I should look like.

*clones MHFQ discreetly*

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post #40 of 68 Old 12-08-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians View Post
Alex S I refuse to allow anyone to yell at me or call me names without a challenge. I set boundaries an d enforce them.
I treat people the way I expect them to treat me. With respect. I demand this.
I do volunteer work and a few of my co workers are very intense and blunt.
I have no problem with that. However when they raise their voice or demand something I firmly state that " I am not your dog, wife or child, YOU dont yell at me. I yell back. Talk to me like an adult and I might do as you suggest."
As an officer in the USAF I can assure you I never raised my voice to get things done.
If you call me or anyone else around me a "name" I am liable to ask you Who the FBOMB are you talking to. Shalom
Thank you. Just because someone is an expert and highly regarded in their field does not give them the right to be derogatory or insulting to others. Just because you are not a brain surgeon certainly does not give your doctor the permission to insult you when he is talking to you about brain surgery and you don't understand him. A little respect goes a long way.
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