BLM's Wild Horses mtg in Boise, Idaho - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Should Wild Mares be Darted?
With PZP Contraceptive 2 66.67%
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post #41 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 07:41 AM
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Wow I thought we were all horse lovers on this board and yet most have no problem with mass killing them. I think it's fantastic that the BLM is finally coming up with other solutions and that should be encouraged and helped along instead of being bad mouthed. Mustangs are part of our heritage and yes we like them and the idea of them--so what. If they can be managed with birth control too then great, lets do it. My taxes are paying for it, right? I hate the idea of a hunting season for horses because as already mentioned domestic horses could also be in danger of being poached by unscrupulous people. Although I have my doubts that many folks would want to eat them since it would be like eating a cat or dog--we just don't accept that here. But sport killing would probably occur and I don't agree with that for any animal. And yes I've been to wild horse auctions and seen some nice ones and some not so much. It's not like the horses can help what they look like. I also heard the wranglers say how much they hate their job and they called the horses dirty names. Where's the compassion?

Really, why are we worried about rounding up all the wild horses at all? I'll tell you why--it all comes back to the big cattle corporations who insist on hogging all the public grazing lands for their own use. Check this out--

“of the total number of livestock and wild horses and/or burros known or authorized to graze within HMAs and their associated grazing allotments, 1.8 percent are wild horses, 0.4 percent are wild burros and the remaining 97.8 percent are livestock.”

We encourage all people interested in public lands issues to be sure to read the Animal Welfare Institute report (2012) Overview of the Management of Wild Horses & Burros. AWI presented this to the National Academy of Science. Although this report was issued in 2012, the issues are all current. This report gives an excellent overview of wild horse & burro issues and the mismanagement of the Bureau of Land Management’s Wild Horse & Burro Program. We will be pulling out a few excerpts for some articles, since this report counters all of the false information by sources at the recent National Wild Horse & Burro Advisory Board meeting, by the livestock grazing activists and in the media.

The livestock grazing permit program regularly loses over $100M annually, and to that must be added the cost of Wildlife Services to “control” livestock predators and a lot of collateral wildlife, as well as the majority of the Wild Horse and Burro Program since essentially all remaining HMAs include livestock grazing, and equine AMLs are calculated with this competition in mind. Boiled down, the grazing program brings nothing to taxpayers but around 3X the cost of the entire Wild Horse and Burro Program right now, not including any other costs. So 325 million citizens are being forced to pay to prop up around 20,000 private permit holders, who also benefit by billions in loans against these grazing privileges. Nice work if you can get it!
“BLM/USFS combined grazing receipts for 2014 = $17.1 million, for 2.1 million cows/calves.”
The GAO Reports:
“The Government Accountability Office (GAO) has reported the federal government spends at least $144 million each year managing private livestock grazing on federal public lands, but collects only $21 million in grazing fees—for a net loss of at least $123 million per year.”
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post #42 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
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response to pasomountain's post

Hi pasomountain.

Who is talking about:
1. Mass killing.
2. Hunting season for horses.
3. Sport killing.
4. Rounding up all the wild horses.

I have not heard or read that anyone is suggesting any of the above. What I have read about is reasonable, sustainable, and humane processing of a small percentage of these animals for meat for local food banks.

From yesterday's BLM Board Meeting, there were a lot of organizations talking about the great work they are doing on increasing adoptions. The future looks very promising for the majority of wild horses in America.

As for the "97.8 percent are livestock" and "the federal government spends at least $144 million each year managing private livestock grazing on federal public lands" this is all new to me and has me outraged.

Thanks for sharing. Important information.
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post #43 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 09:01 AM
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CT USA an English transplant
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Let’s be careful.
I know this is a very sensitive subject and we have different ideas on how to address a very real problem, but we do all love horses.
No one wants mass slaughter and I personally wouldn’t be in favor of allowing them to be hunted like deer.
They do need to be controlled though, for the health of the ‘herd’. If that means a properly organized, humane slaughter then it should be done as close to the location as possible. That sort of thing costs money but the meat could be sold to offset some of that cost.
I’m not seeing the giving it away to the needy as being viable - especially if it’s not even legal to sell it to eat in the US (@Avna)
It is sold to eat in the UK but it’s never really been popular as a choice compared to the traditional beef, lamb, chicken etc.
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post #44 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 09:24 AM
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The grazing lease situation is yet again another massive failure of govt. managing resources that should be managed by the states. The overhead and waste of the BLM managing graze leases is unreal and they do a terrible job of it. I work on co-op graze leases a lot which are graze leases up in the mountains on areas owned by timber companies,( like Weyerhauser), the state, and the BLM. Almost without fail the BLM portions are unmitigated disasters, the state areas are better, and the private lands are usually the most pristine and have exceptional management. I get to see every day why letting the federal govt manage any kind of natural resource is a terrible idea from rampant wolf problems to over and under graze issues to ridiculous regulations for things that are non-existent in a given area, to weed problems the list goes on and on and on. The federal govt is a horrible manager of public resources and an even worse manager of the money they get from us in taxes.
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post #45 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Filou View Post
Well, they ship them internationally for the german mustang makeover, and some border patrol and police choose these horses. I don't see why that is wrong...

Can you provide a source when you say they multiply at 20% per year?...

You say you have your horse because you are buds, so why can't other people want to have a mustang as their bud too?...

...but if you want to talk about it and make judgement on it it might be best to hear it from the source yourself, at least I think it comes across better that way, like you know first hand what you are talking about.
Wild horse and burro program in Fiscal Year 2018.

Nationwide population estimates: 88,090
Total removed: 11,472
Total placed into private care: 4,609
Total trained: 1,479
Total fertility control treatments: 702
Total expenditures: $81.226 million

The current estimated on-range wild horse and burro population (as of March 1, 2019) is 87,885, a 7.25 percent increase over the 2018 estimate of 81,951...That means the current West-wide on-range population exceeds AML by more than 61,000.

[Note: 61,000 surplus, and 4,600 placed into private care, plus 702 given fertility control treatment. Sounds like the surplus GREATLY exceeds the demand. BTW - 3,158 adoptions. The other 1,451 were sales "to any willing buyers animals that are either more than 10 years old or have been passed over for adoption at least three times."]

The currently available fertility control vaccine, known as porcine zona pellucida (PZP), is limited in the duration of its effectiveness – a one-year formulation (initially assumed to be 22 months) that must be hand-injected into a captured wild horse. A second formulation of PZP can be deployed via ground-darting, but is also effective for up to only one year. This dart-deployed formulation is not a viable fertility-control option for most wild horse herds because of (1) the animals’ propensity to avoid human contact and (2) the vast sizes of most herd ranges, which make it difficult to locate and track individual horses....

These off-range horses [Note: 48,375 ] and burros are fed and cared for in either off-range corrals or pastures at a cost of nearly $50 million a year...The total capacity of all BLM off-range holding facilities is 56,581 animals....
THAT is the problem. 61,000 excess on range PLUS 48,000 held in pens. About 110,000 surplus horses and burros. Adoptions run under 3,200/year.
There were 81,951 animals on 26.9 million acres of public rangelands and 44,730 animals in corrals or pastures as of mid-2018, and yet the BLM had only 4,099 animals adopted or sold in 2017. In fact, the rate of adoptions has stayed around that number since 1996, but the number of wild horses and burros on ranges has doubled from about 40,000 in 2012 to the nearly 82,000 in 2018. [Note: That is a 12+% annual growth rate including all attempts to reduce the population.]

To give some perspective, the BLM says ideally 27,000 of these animals can live in balance with livestock and wildlife on public lands.
Bandit & I are buds, but I consider both him and Cowboy to be unsaleable. I might be able to give Bandit away. MIGHT. But he'd be a poor match for many riders since many riders demand obedience and obeying his human master is pretty low on Bandit's list of priorities. Cowboy's former lesson horse days have made him worthless for any arena riding. Neither one LOOKS like much of a horse.

There is a reason why the BLM cannot GIVE the horses away! People want to use their horses and mustangs aren't as good a match for what people want & expect as most intentionally bred horses. Not surprising, since Mother Nature isn't interested in the same things humans want!

As I wrote, a few of the BLM mustangs win the genetics lottery and are desirable for human uses. Most are poor choices in terms of build and attitude for what the large majority of riders seek in a horse they may own for 20-30 years and spend thousands on each year in farrier/vet/feed bills. When you go to sell something - home, car, horse - how the current owner feels about the item doesn't count for squat. It is how the BUYER views the item that sets the price.

And there are not many "buyers" for the average mustang. They cannot compete with purpose bred Quarter Horses, Arabians, etc.

The math tells me talk about shipping mustangs to international buyers or the Border Patrol wanting them is just ****ing in the wind. Whistling past the graveyard, if one prefers. 110,000 surplus. Reproduction after control methods of 12% a year. This is insanity, and it is driven entirely by politics and the votes of people who will never, EVER, own a horse!

PS: I would be in favor of hunting them like deer. I see no other option likely to handle the math. Even that would be a challenge given how remote many of these areas are. The problem is growing more severe every year because there are no popular, politically acceptable answers for it.
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post #46 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 11:15 AM
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Off to a great chat this morning,

talking about taking pictures of some of the defects the horses have, club foot, parrot mouth, etc. They are talking about what horses get turned back, and how they identify ones with issues and what they do with them.
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post #47 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 11:34 AM
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Ok bsms...

I'm not really here to debate with you what the horses are worth, to you, or others. What should be done with them.
That is your opinion. I'm just reporting on what they are going over in the talk. I just want to make that clear.

Personally, I also find importance is being explicit when talking with the numbers, 20 is not 7.25, is not 12, clearly they don't know so I personally don't think it's fair for anyone to make up assumptions about what's going on. That is why I am listening.

I just want to be informed, and report information to those who may have interest and not be available to listen to the talk all day.
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post #48 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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Now going on to talk about the costs of the pens, cost per horse, what contributes to those costs. Moving from there they are talking about fertility drugs and things involved with that.
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post #49 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Filou View Post
Now going on to talk about the costs of the pens, cost per horse, what contributes to those costs. Moving from there they are talking about fertility drugs and things involved with that.
What did they say cost per horse is currently?

Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is essentially your own. - Bruce Lee
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post #50 of 82 Old 07-11-2019, 01:37 PM
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It seems like the board is now getting into the wording of their decisions.

They have said that they want to provide training in evaluating conformation or genetic defects to volunteers. They are also talking about sterilizing the horses with defects and turning them back out to the herd. They have to go over the justification process for euthanizing them, which includes club foot. They said that they don't think this is being done because some people are turning out the colored horses because that's what they think the people want. They are trying to review and recommend new guidance jurisdictions to remedy this situation.
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blm , bureau of land management , hilton boise idaho , july10-2019 , wild horses

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