Correction with a crop is abuse??? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
 51Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:01 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: New England
Posts: 12,001
• Horses: 3
Exactly. Either "abuse" the horse or put your life in danger, extreme yes, but not really an exaggeration.

When the horse comes in from turnout with welts and chunks missing from playing with his buddy... I wish people got it ugh.
Kayty likes this.
Yogiwick is offline  
post #12 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:07 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogiwick View Post
Exactly. Either "abuse" the horse or put your life in danger, extreme yes, but not really an exaggeration.

When the horse comes in from turnout with welts and chunks missing from playing with his buddy... I wish people got it ugh.
I'd had one with a fractured rib from a well placed paddock buddy kick. I'd say she deserved it, she was a royal pain in the behind!!!

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #13 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:10 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern Nevada
Posts: 1,725
• Horses: 1
Abuse? No. The best way to get the desired result? Not always. As for instance the first time I tried to get my Ellie to cross a creek. (Narrow, deep with vertical sides creek in a meadow, so it had to be jumped over.) I tried riding her across for 10-15 minutes, no luck. My much more experienced friend tried the same, with assistance from her crop, same result. Got off, led her across and back a few times, and from then on she would go right over them. OTOH, the one time she tried a bite, she got a fist in the nose.

I think the real question is whether you're using the crop to achieve an end, and getting results, or whether you're just using it to relieve your feelings.
Saskia, Kayty, tinyliny and 1 others like this.
jamesqf is offline  
post #14 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
Weanling
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Western Massachusetts
Posts: 330
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Abuse? No. The best way to get the desired result? Not always. As for instance the first time I tried to get my Ellie to cross a creek. (Narrow, deep with vertical sides creek in a meadow, so it had to be jumped over.) I tried riding her across for 10-15 minutes, no luck. My much more experienced friend tried the same, with assistance from her crop, same result. Got off, led her across and back a few times, and from then on she would go right over them. OTOH, the one time she tried a bite, she got a fist in the nose.

I think the real question is whether you're using the crop to achieve an end, and getting results, or whether you're just using it to relieve your feelings.
Oh no, I use to end a dangerous behavior. IE running sideways at objects or other horses, to rub me (or other riders) off, and ignoring every cue on the way. Now, with a swift whack of the crop he stopped before he slammed my knee into the fence (Again!) today.
mrstorres2566 is offline  
post #15 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: New England
Posts: 12,001
• Horses: 3
I use my crop for discipline (1 hard smack) when the horse is disobedient (as in clearly knows what I want and is simply ignoring me and giving me attitude/being stubborn) or does something dangerous. I have only every used a crop on the ground for dangerous behavior. If a horse goes after me on the ground (where we are VERY vulnerable) that's really the only defense we humans have. I will not hesitate to give a horse several HARD smacks if they do something extreme such as bite (not nip) me. I teach my horses to make decisions. They don't HAVE to listen to me, they aren't forced, however they respect me and know if they choose to disrespect me there will be consequences. I've never had any horse I have worked with regularly display any dangerous behavior (bite/kick) and if they had it it doesn't stay long. We have tools to equalize us, yes we are smarter and should find ways around using them, but when it comes down to it we are 1/10th of their size. You know you are a good horseman when you don't need to use your tools and the "threat" of the tools and similarly/ more importantly the respect a horse has for you instills obedience. If a horse is acting up and you say their name loudly in "that" tone and they stop that should be all it takes. Your position is undisputed and you don't need to prove it. When it doesn't work there are tools to preserve our safety and, if need be, get us to that point.

TRAINING is FAIR and UNEMOTIONAL, ABUSE is NOT.

In almost all cases you will NOT actually hurt the horse unless you are trying to. As Katyy said, they hurt each other much more than we could ever hurt them. The few times I have REALLY gotten after a horse? They cower and shake and then are FINE and there is no physical or mental damage, just "aha, won't do that again" :)
Yogiwick is offline  
post #16 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 01:27 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: New England
Posts: 12,001
• Horses: 3
For the record my horses are spoiled, though I expect them to earn that privilege, and will happily coming running to meet me. I don't have to discipline them (usually lol) because they know I'm in charge.

Anyways, back on topic.

I rode a mare once, not my horse had never even met the owner. I rode her western and she had a BAD habit of kicking when I reached under for the cinch (just picture it-obviously dangerous). I always did her cinch up carefully and rewarded her when she was good, but the ingrained habit didn't change. Finally had enough and grabbed the latigo (hope that's the right word) and hit her HARD. She didn't freak, had no mark, still liked me, and NEVER did that again.

There was another thread recently posted where the rider, in disciplining her horse, gave her a very minor injury. The horse was behaving in a very dangerous manner, the rider did what she felt she had to and felt badly after. I don't think any (normal person) would LIKE that, however as horse people we do what we have to do. Is that abuse? or tough love with a 1000lb+ animal?

Is it better to punish firmly once? or ineffectively multiple times then get hurt? While we do out best to love our horses when the situation calls for it discipline is necessary; to keep us safe, and indirectly give our horses a better life.

Ranting over, off to bed lol.
EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
Yogiwick is offline  
post #17 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 02:06 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
Yogiwick, once a horse IS at the point of knowing that you are in charge, then there is little to no need to discipline. But getting to that point, spoiling results in a dangerous or at least a very disrespectful horse.
My 3 year old is quite spoilt now, I've had him since he was a weanling and he learnt very quickly that I was in charge. We much around in the paddock together now, he runs behind me and bucks and carries on, but the second he gets too close, he knows and backs off very quickly.
His work in hand is excellent, he backs up when I walk backwards from well over 2m away from him, and steps forward when I do. Point at which part of his body I want to move over, and it moves.
He's off for breaking this month, so it will be interesting to see how he manners on the ground translate to under saddle. He is quite cheeky, so I have no qualms in giving him a good whack if he needs it once I'm on him!

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #18 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 02:58 AM
Foal
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 61
• Horses: 2
I'm a bit concerned about how many of you have encountered dangerous horses. Whatever happened to those horses that made them attack people?! It usually takes a lot to make an animal as gentle as a horse go against people... exceptions exist, of course, but reading these posts it sounds more like you're working with lions. Not saying anyone here did anything wrong to these horses, but in most cases, something must have gone seriously wrong in these animals' lives. I mean, I've known quite a few horses that would start nipping trying to get treats if they weren't (gently!) put in their place when they first got saucy, and some horses with a sour attitude, but that's something quite different from outright attacking people.
I do not believe in using a crop in order to get a result (when the horse doesn't do what I want it to do). There are better ways to train than with pain, and pain it is, when you use the crop any more than a very light flick.
BUT I sure believe that in the situations most of you describe here, if you come across a horse that wants to hurt you, you need to fight back as hard as you can, with whatever is at hand, and a crop is particularly useful since it can indeed inflict such pain. I would never punish such a horse for minutes though, or chasing it around whipping it, that IS cruelty. The horse does not know what it is getting hurt for, punishment is only effective if given promptly.
And the horse that wasn't put it its place and just acts careless, doesn't respect a human's space? Yes, one nice smack usually works wonders there as well. I agree it is better to put your point across firmly once, rather than being nice for too long and having a harder time getting rid of the behavior later on. However, it would be best not to let it come to that, when they start invading your space a firm word or hand sign is usually enough.
So, for actual disrespect and aggressive behavior, I would use a whip (I don't have one, only deal with my ow horses these days and they are friendly and sweet animals). For "correction" during riding or groundwork, no. But then I don't spank my children either, it's actually illegal in my country...
CheyRider is offline  
post #19 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 03:07 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,687
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1inKy View Post
I think its very situational. In ur instance it corrected the behaviour....therefore not abusive at all in my opinion. Its like when u spank a child. And im not talking with a belt or harshly. ...not trying to stir up that debate. But physical correction done for the SAKE of correction and NOT out of anger can be a very useful tool.
Posted via Mobile Device
You would not want to get caught spanking a child in my country, its a criminal offence, and imprisonment is one of the options the court has as a sanction.

So if hiting a child is frowned upon why not the same to animals but to add a further angle to my responce I have hit a horse on two occasions and I will continue to respond in a like manner on only these two events.

If a horse tries to bite me I will hit it on the lips with a fist. Just once. And imediatly. However I inadvertantly was responsible for the bite response so I ended up hitting the horse for a behaviour I had inadvertantly started.
If the horse tries to kick me and misses I will wack its leg with the walking stick I carry but only if it is instant.

I have had the experience of my horse trying to bite. She did not do it again. The same horse kicked out at me and missed I did not miss She also never did that again. However that is horse behavour, trying to be the boss.

If one watches the horse you can tell when something may be coming and head it off. One of my horses was getting annoyed at me and she raised her hind leg under her as a warning to me. I growled at her she put the leg down. They know what they are doing, and will warn generally before taking action. In a lot of cases it is a matter of spotting the warning signals early enough to avoid getting hurt and to be able to correct the horse without violence. They are smarter that we give them credit for.

My present horse Bugs is a conman and a joker. He also thinks.
CheyRider likes this.

My blog foremyhorse.org you may enjoy the read. Its different.

Last edited by Stan; 11-03-2013 at 03:11 AM.
Stan is offline  
post #20 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 04:01 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,224
• Horses: 0
Well... Handcuff me if you must!
bsms likes this.
CandyCanes is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correction Bits eeo11horse Horse Tack and Equipment 7 06-29-2012 09:41 AM
Correction bits tempest Horse Tack and Equipment 7 06-25-2012 02:02 PM
Using a Crop? HurricaneKatt Horse Riding & Horse Activity 23 10-14-2010 08:43 AM
whinny correction JustPaint Horse Talk 7 10-02-2010 12:10 AM
Crop? appy rider 4 life English Riding 11 02-24-2009 01:29 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome