Correction with a crop is abuse??? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CheyRider View Post
And I guarantee that the kids who are used to physical punishment are the worst brats whenever their parents turn their backs on them...
Respect is rarely won by violence, only fearful obedience... and isn't it that in the horse world also, the leader is usually the horse that doesn't have to fight, since he holds natural authority?
I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
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post #32 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan View Post
Are you sure.
Positive. I give my horse a whack on a regular basis... Lazy git. Lock me up n throw away the key!
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post #33 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
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Stupid phone died on me.

I don't think that it's that we deal with dangerous horses. It's that we won't take any nonsense from our horses. They outweigh us by as nmuch as ten times. Things they would do to another horse and not think twice about it could potentially kill a human, so they need to know what is and isn't allowed.

For instance, the example I gave of my gelding pawing at me and clipping my leg. He was a 15.2hh 130bs 3yo at the time. If I hadn't been moving anyway so the blow glanced off my leg, he could very well have broken my leg. You can get that when I reprimanded him, I was after him before his foot was even back on the ground. He is a very dead-head type horse, so simply giving him a jerk on the halter wouldn't have done anything. I wanted him to think his world was ending because he hurt me. The punishment fit the crime and he has NEVER tried to paw again, even when there isn't anyone around him. He does not fear me or the crop. I can wave it all around him and rub him all over with it and he just stands there. If he feared me, he wouldn't come running when he sees me and wouldn't stand perfectly without being tied while I worked on cleaning his sheath.

I'm honestly curious to see what you think I should have done when he pawed me, CheyRider.
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post #34 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 03:04 PM
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Incitatus32, not antropomorphizing at all, rather trying to understand the horses' behavior. As for the aggressive horses you describe, maybe the training (yours or the one they received prior to meeting you) wasn't ideal for the horses that they felt so threatened they went to the attack-strategy. Not all methods work for all horses, not all trainers work for all horses. Nothing wrong with the trainer, nothing wrong with the horse, yet sometimes, if it's a misfit, the result might be desaster.
Our first horse was a rescue horse that had lived with bulls as sole companions for many years. She did not behave like a normal horse at all, and she would show aggression if she didn't like things. She was 12 when we got her and had not learned anything a horse needs to learn. Our riding teacher back then was a really great guy, I still think he was awsome with horses, bought sour horses from the big sports and retrained them to be great school horses. But our horse did not get along with him, hated his guts. When she was new in the barn, he wanted to show her to some people and went into her stall. She attacked him, he had to jump over the side wall to save himself. When she only heard his voice she'd get excited. He once had to hit her over the back with a broom (and we would never have complained about it, it was self defense), made her hate him more.
This horse never did anything to us other than nudge us with her head (one of the few things we couldn't get out of her for the rest of her life). We trained her to be a sweet trail horse, we were able to put little kids on her back and she'd watch out for them. She DID get a few licks with a crop over the years since she DID behave like a bull at times and tried to just run people over (potentially dangerous disrespect), but most of the time you had to treat her gently, with little pressure. I remember another occasion where some "more experienced" girls tried to show us how to lunge her (with pressure and "do as I say") and she charged at them, as well. Still that horse was so good if treated right that my parents let me trail ride her by myself as soon as she was halfway trained.
Another example, my mare, when she was first trained at age 3, started to rear and seemed to be dominant and dangerous. Curiously, when I trained her with the help of a Parelli-oriented trainer years later, she was the sweetest horse from the start (I'm not a fan of Parelli, but it worked good for her). She seemed to just have outgrown it. However, once she got very excited when I walked her out in the fields near herds of other horses. In order to get respect, I flicked the rope pretty hard and sent her back. After two or three times of this, she started to rear (just a little). I was quite shocked. When I thought about it later, I figured I had actually overdone it. She is a very sensitive horse, and what I did was too much. She had no escape, and she felt threatened, so she went to rearing.
The trainer told me another sad story of how at the ranch she used to work at in Canada, they sacked out the young horses in the round pen. Like it or not, it worked great for pretty much all the horses. Except one, who was part Arabian and had a personality much different from the average Quarter. He worked himself into a frenzy, tried to escape and broke a leg. Different horses, different characers, different treatment required. Some need a firmer hand, some need more sensitive handling. I seriously doubt any horse's problems derive from not getting enough beatings in their life, though. Not enough leadership, yes. I'm not the perfect leader (far from it!), so my horses show disrespectful behavior sometimes, like not getting out of the way right away or "discussing" if they want to do what I ask them to. But I wouldn't try to beat that respect into them. Rather, I try to work on being a better leader to them.
Okay, I hope that was not too much blabla and I got my point across, it's getting late over here...
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post #35 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 03:15 PM
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I had to look up "paw" first, this is not my first language. Do I get it right, he tried to kick you? Then good for you that you showed him fiercely that this was not acceptable. That's what I'd say, DraftyAiresMum. Not saying anything against self defense. Someone said it quite well, horses will kick and bite each other if they want to tell the other horse to move away and quit it right now, and for this exact message we should "kick and bite" as well. I have actually kicked my pony, who's always the boss in any herd, once when he invaded my space. He looked at me quite puzzled, but he got it.
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post #36 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 09:34 PM
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^^(Pawing is when a horse "kicks" repeatedly at the ground, say when they are impatient or hungry. While not directly dangerous it can be extremely dangerous if they hit you accidently or are trying to strike (kick out in front) at you, and is a disrespectful behavior in and of itself. I'm sure you've seen this behavior before, try youtube-ing it.)

We also need to think of all those little things that escalate. A little pushiness and nip at feeding that turns into a horse taking a chunk out of your arm because they want food. Appropriate discipline at the time keeps things from needing severe discipline. If a pushy horse hits you with his foot you'd better get after him before he just decides to run you over!
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post #37 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 09:39 PM
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And I think we all agree that violence has not place in training.
Horses interact in a "violent" manner and humans must do what they need to when faced with a much larger "violent" animal. Beating is abuse, correction *when needed* is not.
I think some people have trouble with a correction being physical. Look at how horses think and act before putting emotions (which have no place in training) into play.
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post #38 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 10:22 PM
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Man, if smacking my house with a crop/dressage whip is abuse, then I should taken away and locked up. I was just abusing my horse this afternoon.

No, if you're disciplining your horse and the discipline is equal to the "crime", the there's no abuse.
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post #39 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CandyCanes View Post
Positive. I give my horse a whack on a regular basis... Lazy git. Lock me up n throw away the key!
Can't do that cause we would have to feed you, and then there is the exercise issue, the cleaning of the cell and on the list goes so you are out running free with your hands handcuffed.

My blog foremyhorse.org you may enjoy the read. Its different.
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post #40 of 45 Old 11-03-2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
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This sounds almost exactly like me and my upbringing. I remember one time I bit my grandmother while I was being a brat and got a wooden spoon to the knuckles/shoulders. As kids we were taught that EVERYTHING deserves an inherent respect and that not giving it that has consequences. I have respect for my elders not because of fear, but because they earned it by picking the right form of punishment at the right time to dissuade me of a habit. I gained respect and trust for them because I knew that it wasn't abuse, and that I still had their love because the punishments were swift and to the point.

Anyhow, Cheyrider, I do agree with you that not all training methods/trainers work for every horse but I found these cases to be a bit suspicious when they cleared up after the second good smack or so. Violence isn't my go to for correction but if I think that what's gonna stop them is that then they're getting that once they get it then hey - I don't have to reprimand them anymore, and I get a safe environment for the horse and me. In the horse herd the leader gains his power by having squabbles with the others. If they do something wrong or irk him off you can bet that he's going to give them a good kick or bite to show them how to behave around him.
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