Correction with a crop is abuse??? - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 45 Old 11-04-2013, 01:15 AM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Oregon
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In the situation you described, no way. I'm such a gently disposed person I've been known to apologize to inanimate objects for bumping into them, and even I use a crop. Last week Sam was trying to bulldoze me for the apple in my locker, and after he ignored my pushing his nose away, I gave him a hard snap on the shoulder with the leather end of my lead rope. Guess who couldn't have cared less and continued his search for snacks like nothing happened until I backed him up and used Mean Mom Voice to make him stay put. No way you're convincing me I just committed an act of abuse when my darling pest didn't even remove himself from my grill long enough to pout.

Like the others said, hitting an animal out of anger is abusive, and it really upsets me to see people hit horses repeatedly with crops after a bad jump, to go faster, etc., but there's nothing noble in getting huffy when good horse owners correct their horses.

"...and may your life be filled with good horses." Buck Brannaman

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post #42 of 45 Old 11-04-2013, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
Can't do that cause we would have to feed you, and then there is the exercise issue, the cleaning of the cell and on the list goes so you are out running free with your hands handcuffed.
Awwww.... Oh well! Not to be deterred *runs off like a lunatic*
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post #43 of 45 Old 11-04-2013, 04:40 AM
Green Broke
 
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[QUOTE=CheyRider;4016978]And I guarantee that the kids who are used to physical punishment are the worst brats whenever their parents turn their backs on them...
[QUOTE]
I have quite the opposite experiance, kids who have never had a smacked **** IMO tend to be far worse behaved. I've never met so many ill mannered, badly behaved, out of control children since the UK started frowning on smacking children.
I recieved a smacked **** quite a few times as a child, never did me any harm. I'm not advocating beating a child, an open hand on the childs bottom is enough, never with an impliment.

I've been kicked, bitten and flattened by many horses, but never by my own. All the horses I've been hurt by have belonged to owners who would never discipline thier horses properly. a wiggle of a leadrope and the word no just doesnt cut it with horses.

My youngster threatened to kick me on the second day I had him, I lent down to put a boot on and he lifted the leg and threatened, I wolloped him accross the **** so hard that he shot to the back of the stable and my hand hurt for a good 5 mins. In 3 years I've had him he has never even thought about doing it again and no he isnt afraid of me. He comes cantering to the gate when I appear on the yard (even if I go nowhere near the field gate) his favorite thing is getting his bottom scratched and he loves cuddles.

A horse I handled in the showring was an unholy terror, he would bite and often left his owner black and blue all down her arms from one show class. She would not smack him ever. I took him to one show, he bit my side (hard enough that It broke skin through a heavy weight wool jacket) and conciquently got my crop across his chest so hard it left a mark. He never tried to bite me again (and yes I continued to show him) however as soon as he was handed back to his owner he started biteing her. He didnt respect her and saw her as lower than him inthe pecking order.

I once got kicked by a kids pony, it broke 3 ribs and hospitalised me with internal bleeding. That was the scariest as that pony was supposed to be for small children. YOu better believe than my mum took the pony, put it in a similar situation to provoke a kick and then gave the pony a "come to jesus" moment, the pony probably thought it was going to die, but you better believe that it never tried it again (perticularly as when I got back on my feet I re-enforced that I was higher in the pecking order)

RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT

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post #44 of 45 Old 11-04-2013, 11:32 AM
Green Broke
 
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I believe you can train a horse without the use of a whip or crop being used. I reserve the right to use force when being bitten or kicked as I mentioned in an earlier post. That is when I will hit the horse. if the threat from the horse is violent. But I keep in mind, if I am getting angry, the horse already is.

Feeding or being monstered for tit bits by the horse is a learned behaviour and meany owners have been bitten because the horse could not get the choice bit of carrot out of the pocket of said owner. That started as an entertaining game and ends up with the horse getting hit.

My galding Bugs used to get all impatient when I entered the paddock with the feed bucket and went to the point of sticking his head into it while still closed. He would push and shove out of excitment to get at the food. Now he waits and knows the drill. Walk beside me but not in my space that is a yard seperation, when I stop he will walk on turn around and face me, Then I place the bucket for him to eat. It took three days to get him to calm down and do as I expected. No hitting just a stern growl untill he got the message. And when it comes to pushing him away if in my space I keep my thumb nail just proud of the flesh. It works.

As for hitting kids, in New Zealand it is a criminal offence and how do you reason with the WHY generation. Spare the rod and you spoil the child. There us a time when response works better than words but young kids are just the same as a horse limited ability to reason. Or they refuse too.

Ever noticed how having a horse is like having a teenager around again, always trying it on

My blog foremyhorse.org you may enjoy the read. Its different.

Last edited by Stan; 11-04-2013 at 11:36 AM.
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post #45 of 45 Old 11-04-2013, 02:48 PM
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Well, I guess most here agree that potentially dangerous behavior in horses requires immediate action, and that can be a smack with a crop if needed... abuse is if done for the wrong reasons (like the horse doesn't do a maneuvre correctly), or excessively (like beating the horse through the whole corral, sorry, way too much and definitely just a panicky horse as a result that has forgotten what happened anyway).
Incitatus32, it sounds like you know what you're doing, and I'm sure if you come across enough horses, you do have some of the kind that you described.
My mare had troubles giving her hind hooves when I started working with her. She would pull them up too high and then make little kicking moves. I could have felt threatened I guess, since there was a chance she could hit me, and punish her for it. As it was, I thought that she might feel insecure with someone holding her legs, or that she might have balance problems or muscle stiffness. As she didn't aim at me doing it, I just told her no when she did it and practiced , making sure I stayed next to her with lots of room around us and not behind her when I lifted her legs. She learned she has nothing to fear, and now gives her hooves just fine.
By the way, I had only one real accident with horses (crazy, I know, I'm very lucky I guess, and I'm blessed with a fast reaction), and that was, funnily enough, when I was told to use a crop on a pony to make her gallop faster, which resulted in her turning into an unstoppable torpedo and me being knocked off by a lowhanging branch against the head (wore helmet, luckily).
Stan, it sounds like we have a similar way of handling horses, from what you write.
Faye, I guess we had different experiences with kids then. I don't know if lack of physical punishment and worse behavior are cause and effect or just coincidential correlations, since this is also the generation where kids eat more processed foods than ever, watch more TV, are under more pressure in school.... all these things and many more might make them behave worse (if indeed they do - even the old Greeks complained about how bad youth behaved those days). But that is, of course, completely off-topic...
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