Horrific Loss...How the Heck do I cope? What do I tell my son?! (graphic descrip) - Page 13 - The Horse Forum
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post #121 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowCowgirl View Post
I'm so sorry for your loss that is horrible! However, I do need to ask, did a game warden or livestock-wildlife conflict person examine pumpkin?

Dogs have very different killing patterns from say, coyotes. They don't know what they are doing. And generally they don't consume what they kill. If the dog did not have blood on it I'd say that's reasonable grounds to require a proper kill investigation. I know you need to blame this on something right now but I am just thinking it may not be what it seems, even if the dog has a "history"

(I work in the wildlife conflict field)
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I tend to agree with this. I may not be experienced with horses but I know dogs very well. An aggressive or highly prey driven domestic dog may kill animals but its rare for them to eat them. It is very possible that this dog smelled blood and came to investigate. It may have heard the coyotes as well. The horse does not need to be rotting or any of that. A dog can smell fresh blood from a long ways away. Curiosity would drive it to investigate it.

I'd lean towards a pack of coyotes. Hamstringing, killing and eating their prey is a pretty standard pattern for them. I highly doubt a domesticated dog is going to find, stalk, hamstring and partially eat a mini horse. The pattern just doesn't fit. I find it hard to accept a solitary dog did this. Minis although small are still larger and heavier than a dog. They can run longer and no doubt would kick to defend itself. Whatever attacked your mini was determined and didn't do it for sport. It was hungry and killed to eat. Coyotes, wolves, or large predator cat is my guess.

I have a 130 lb bulldog who runs and plays with my mini stallion. If it came down to a real battle, the mini would win hands down. He can out run and out muscle my dog no problem, as big and as strong as he is. Unless the mini was lame or ill, a normal dog just doesn't have the stamina to keep up in the long run. A hungry wolf or pack of coyotes is a different story.
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post #122 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Location: Desert from Hell, CA.
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A pack of coyotes ignored two sets of newborn piglets 15 or 20 feet away?

And ate only one hamstring?

....

....

No offense but I went to the trial. This dog had two other AC incidents in the TWO WEEKS PRIOR TO PUMPKINS DEATH. He was escalating.

The rest of that is just really speculation, but for giggles, I will look around for info on a big cat or um, wild wolf presence in my area. I find that reading really helps me learn! ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth, the Goblin King
I move the stars for no one.
RIP Pumpkin: 2012-8/26/13

Last edited by demonwolfmoon; 10-19-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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post #123 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittlemanRob View Post
I tend to agree with this. I may not be experienced with horses but I know dogs very well.

I'd lean towards a pack of coyotes. Hamstringing, killing and eating their prey is a pretty standard pattern for them. I highly doubt a domesticated dog is going to find, stalk, hamstring and partially eat a mini horse. The pattern just doesn't fit. I find it hard to accept a solitary dog did this. Minis although small are still larger and heavier than a dog. They can run longer and no doubt would kick to defend itself. Whatever attacked your mini was determined and didn't do it for sport. It was hungry and killed to eat. Coyotes, wolves, or large predator cat is my guess.

A hungry wolf or pack of coyotes is a different story.
Oh and PS:

1) Pumpkin was a stunted shetland. If I had to guess, he weighed...MAYBE 200 pounds. He was VERY SMALL, and still built like a baby, deerlike.

He had deformed rear legs and front legs. Still think he can outrun a stupid dog?


He tried his best...I saw the tracks. I saw where the dog grabbed a leg and was walking sideways while Pumpkin struggled. Want pictures? Because we have them. We showed them to the judge, at the trial.

2) A dog of that breed almost killed my mother and aunt. They were a VERY long time in the hospital receiving skin grafts, and surgeries which didn't all take. Ask her whether or not it was a pack of coyotes that took her breasts, parts of her forearms and her calves. Ask her how fun it is to wear long sleeved shirts in the desert.

3) My husband corrects me and says there were THREE AC calls on this dog in the two weeks prior. The ones I remember are the one where he jumped on some guy, and the other where he was growling barking and being aggressive. He was chasing my horses. My other three were limping like crazy the day after the attack.

4) I'm still planning to look up wolves, and big cats in my area today, but I'll tell you right now, the only plausible idea you provided was the "pack of coyotes", and again....newborn piglets squealing their heads off x a lot....obnoxious running horses, hmmm.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth, the Goblin King
I move the stars for no one.
RIP Pumpkin: 2012-8/26/13
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post #124 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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According to the government website, there is one wolf that has been seen in CA, at least respect to gray wolves:
Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves - California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Wolves in California

With respect to mountain lions, a couple were seen in Redlands, which is over an hour drive away from my house:

REDLANDS: Two sightings of mountain lions reported (Updated)

The above is 2013. Before that, the only sighting I can find within reason is in 2007.

*************
Looks like there were some coyote activities LAST YEAR within the county:
Three Rare Coyote Attacks in 10 Days Spark Worries - ABC News

But not seeing anything nearby, recent, or to do with livestock loss.
amp23 likes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth, the Goblin King
I move the stars for no one.
RIP Pumpkin: 2012-8/26/13
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post #125 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 04:39 PM
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I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread.

I urge you not to blame dogs of this breed for what happened - There are bad people that make bad dogs.

Are any of your horses dominant, or aggressive towards animals like dogs? If so I would suggest turning that one out with the others if you haven't already. A mule works just as well, as does a Llama, if you're looking into that.

My little mare goes out whenever I feel the herd is threatened. She will stomp anything that threatens her companions.
amp23 and EvilHorseOfDoom like this.

Pssh.I didn't pick up the wrong lead
It's called a counter canter...
...A very advanced maneuver.
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post #126 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SorrelHorse View Post
I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread.

I urge you not to blame dogs of this breed for what happened - There are bad people that make bad dogs.

Are any of your horses dominant, or aggressive towards animals like dogs? If so I would suggest turning that one out with the others if you haven't already. A mule works just as well, as does a Llama, if you're looking into that.

My little mare goes out whenever I feel the herd is threatened. She will stomp anything that threatens her companions.
Sorrelhorse, I don't blame that breed of dogs, I blame stupid owners who don't know what kind of dogs they have, how to handle them, or how to keep them contained. That includes the one that attacked my mom. ;)

As for the dog thing....I'm surprised my Draft filly didn't kill it! I've seen her back dogs down before, and at least once she tried to stomp a cat. I guess she grew out of it? =( Heck, she even kicked our dog recently... or maybe that was Witch??? Still working on convincing hubby properly to let me get a dog deterring equine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth, the Goblin King
I move the stars for no one.
RIP Pumpkin: 2012-8/26/13
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post #127 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 08:00 PM
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In all honesty I didn't read every single post in the thread. I didn't know he was stunted with malformed legs. Its probably very true he couldn't outrun or out maneuver a dog.

At the same time, the weakest animal in the herd is the one that gets singled out with most predators. I still think its a stretch for a domestic dog.

I've rescued more than enough pitbulls during my life. I've seen the damage they receive during fights. I've seen bait dogs with their faces half torn off and their ears gone. I've never seen them hamstring another dog. They don't fight like that. Face and neck mostly. Mostly of course because the other dog needs to defend itself and they have to use their muzzle to do it. Pitbulls are typically neck and head biters. Pitbulls have been used for a long time to hunt and kill rats and other small vermin. They grab the neck or head and shake to break the neck or back. A decently fed domestic dog doesn't usually eat what it kills. The fact that your little horse was partially eaten indicates to me that whatever killed it was very hungry.

Ignoring the piglets is a mystery. A much easier target than a weak horse. If it were coyotes or the dog, why didn't they attack the piglets? Are they behind fencing that would discourage a 4 legged predator?

I am very sorry to hear this has happened. We have a coyote problem in my area. This is why I have surveillance cameras on my pastures and in my barn. If coyotes are skulking about I will camp out in the loft with my rifle and shoot them on sight. I hang the dead ones in a tree close to the fence line and the others get the message and usually I won't have them around for a few months.
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post #128 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 08:20 PM
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Not sure if you ever decided but Auction Horse Rescue (LA area) has a 6 year old ride-able donkey that's up for adoption. He's pretty adorable!
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post #129 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 08:39 PM
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I agree that pit bulls do tend to go for the throat, but if its vicious and possibly hungry its not going to care how it catches its prey. How do I know? Experience of dogs getting into sheep and killing. A couple of times it was pit bulls and pit bull crosses, and we saw them doing it. In ten minutes they killed or maimed over twenty sheep. There were only 2 dogs. Ten minutes is how long it took to drive home, get the gun and kill them. Horses are much better able to defend themselves than sheep, but a small shetland with leg problems would have had little chance. As for why the horse and not the pigs? Horses will run, and a running animal can encourage a dog to give chase and catch/kill it. Also if the sow was with the piglets, the dog would have had a much tougher game on its hands.
I'm glad you are fighting to put a stop to this dog.
And I'm sure you still miss Pumpkin, so hugs to you for being able to discuss it at all.
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post #130 of 131 Old 10-19-2013, 08:43 PM
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Look, honestly, just as she has started to perhaps move forward (it has been only weeks), you come along and decide to question all of this? Really? What possible constructive reason could you have? There has been a trial. The dogs in question are repeat offenders. Whether or not you, (in Canada and the OP is in Cali-WORLDS apart as far as what animals are around....)choose to believe it or not really makes no difference. I do not believe she asked WHAT killed the pony, now did she? So that is not open for debate.

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Last edited by tinyliny; 10-20-2013 at 01:23 AM.
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