The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Laying a horse down

7K views 41 replies 17 participants last post by  LoriF 
#1 ·
I have a young horse that was born on our property. I decided to send him to our granddaughters trainer to work with him. Today I found both knees are swollen, warm to touch and sores from the trainer apparently trying to lay him down. Last week she had a dentist out to pull his wolf teeth and lightly sedated him. He was hobbled and apparently struck out at her before I got there. The dentist suggested I get the vet to sedate him( which we have always done with our other young horses).
The trainer is new at laying down horses and hasn’t been trained with this technique that I’m aware of. I didn’t even know this was happening. I’m really upset and I can say ready to move my horse from the barn. I wasn’t called about the injuries either. That all being said, my question is this. Am I being unreasonable? Should the technique cause such injuries to the knees? Any thoughts are appreciated.
 
#2 ·
Yiiiiiiiiiiiikes yeah I would be getting my horse out of there.

Anyone who thinks it's necessary to training to lay a horse down -- especially in such a way that would hurt the horse's knees -- is probably fixated on dominating the horse and flooding them rather than working with the horse. It's old school in a BAD bad bad way. Does it result in a "broke" horse? Yes, in more ways than one. Flooding is an abusive form of training where the horse is taught to shut down and give up. It leaves a lot of holes in their training that absolutely show up later.
 
#3 ·
There are different methods and reasons to lay a horse down and it isn't to confused with throwing a horse.
Either way whether you agree with the method or reason or not, I wouldn't trust someone inexperienced and unsupervised to do so.
I'd pull the horse and find someone else to train your horse before you have a wreck on your hands.
 
#4 ·
I agree with the above.
I have started hundreds of horses and been interested in the Hybrid Horseman method of laying a horse down but, Paul, was working in the Far East and had many horses to deal with and had perfected the method which helped him deal with more horses than most.

If a horse is started correctly then there is no need to lay a horse down.
 
#5 ·
Paul, aka Endopink, works with crazy race horses that are trying to kill him, so he lays them down. Us, with normal horses, especially young ones in training, have no need to lay a horse down. Get your horse away from that place.
 
#9 ·
I personally do not like the whole "laying a horse down" as it causes way more problems than it "fixes". It is one of the worst quick fixes to bully a horse into submission and obedience. Sure, it gives you a consistent horse but one who is shut down and robotic, which, once the "force" is removed, well, then the real problems begin. Every single hole in that horse's education comes glaring once the "learned helplessness" is removed. I work with OTTBs and OTSTBs plus gaited horses and I have never laid one down, even the "crazies".

It takes way more time to build a horse a foundation rather than just bully the horse into submission, and the "30 Day Cowboy" can't take the time to get you a willing partner who can think. Instead, you get a 30 day horse who was forced with into compliance, I do not trust horses trained in this manner as they will explode on you at some point.

Nope, remove your horse before even more damage is done, both physically and mentally.
 
#11 ·
I do not totally agree with you over this.

Done as Endospink does it, there is no bullying. Sure the horse might object to going down but, once proven that man can and will put it into its most vulnerable position, and nothing bad happens, it is willing to respect.

Where Endospink was working in Japan, there were way more horses waiting to go into training than places. Horses that were obstreperous ended up on the diner plate. He used the laying down to speed starting them up. He could get them going in less time therefore deal with more giving them a better chance.

If you watch the above video you will hear him say that the horse was already in training because it had been ridden.
That is the mind set he is dealing with.

Endospink has a phenomenal understanding of horses, he is a fearless, brilliant rider and achieves results faster than
Anyone else.

Watch some of his videos of the Rearer, water problems and his starting method. Horses are not closed down, they accept with respect.

It is not a method I would want the average 'trainer' to use.
 
#10 ·
That is a technique i would never ever use. I've trained many many horses, and i can not imagine a situation where i would need a technique like that.

You can teach them to bow and lay down, but that is often a separate training technique involved in trick training.

Remove your horse immediately!
 
#15 ·
Laying a horse down should only be done as a last resort on an otherwise dangerous or unreachable animal. It's usually the horse's 'last chance' before the meat truck. There is no reason to do it on a typical horse, especially a youngster in for training, and if it's done in such a way that the horse's knees are swollen and scraped, that means the trainer is NOT doing it right.

I have had to do it once. It made a huge difference for that horse-- it was truly a lightbulb moment for him to realize that we weren't going to hurt him, and he was a different horse after that. But it's not something I would do as a matter of course, and it should only be done under the supervision of someone experienced who knows how to do it without causing undue stress and injury. Done properly, the horse doesn't fight and is down in less than a minute; sometimes less. No injury, no pain, and with as little fear to him as one can manage. Then go sit with him, rub on him, talk to him. Do pleasant things until he relaxes, then let him up. Too many trainers throw the horse then cover them with a tarp, spray them with hoses, or crack whips off of them, and 'flood' the horse into submission with scary things. That doesn't fix anything long-term and only reinforces to the horse that people will hurt him.

Get your horse and daughter out of there. This trainer doesn't sound like he has a clue and has instead watched too many YouTube videos and not trained enough horses....
 
#17 ·
Watched a video last year of a trainer who intentionally drove a horse to flipping over (Also something people do to try to assert dominance, similar to laying down) and it killed the horse. Either it tore an aorta or hit it's head on the backwards fall, I can't remember what the final verdict was.


Done incorrectly, there's a good risk of seriously injuring a horse. Also, as noted, there's a huge difference between teaching a horse to 'lay down', literally lay down, in a controlled manner, around a human, and jerking them down/throwing them to force them to submit.


I feel the first option is good to do, the second is something to be done only in a desperate, last ditch, nothing else is working, situation, and always by someone who knows what they're doing.
 
#18 ·
Of the hundreds of horses I've worked with, I've only laid three down. And it truly was the last option before euthanasia.

For two the change was wonderful. They became good partners. The third still had times when he would do self harm and if a person was in the way? Oh, well.. Some thought malnutrition as a foal was to blame for a neurological deficit. I don't regret giving him a chance, though.

But as a standard training technique? No way.
 
#19 ·
@foxtrotter I've seen Oops throw herself down by accident... and get up off the ground with a whole new attitude after that.

Outback also threw herself down back in the spring... JC was there helping me teach her to lead, and when she did it, JC kinda... tackled her and held her down. Then petted and caressed on her. Outback also got up with a shiny new attitude.

Both were being rude and disrespectful and basically just fell down on their own. Both have only done it the once and granted, they had only themselves to blame, but there's something about that... the whole falling down (Because the downed horse gets eaten) thing that gets their attention. They get up with a new respect for the person that did it, or they think had a hand in it. Then the trust can start.

If you watch other horses in the pasture, left alone to their own devices, the new horses of the group don't get to trust or be trusted until respect is established. That's when the trust starts. I think for some horses, if nothing else works, then get medieval on them, get their attention, gain their respect, THEN work on the trust.

Just to clarify... so if anyone else thinks I'm advocating for this to be used early and often, I don't. That's a last ditch act of desperation to keep a dangerously willful horse from getting a one way ticket to Mexico.
 
#20 ·
Addition: THIS is what teaching a horse to lay down, in a controlled manner around humans looks like. This is Oops and JC on a sunny winter day last year. Oops was 2. This wasn't a thrown down scenario. The rope on her fetlock was to teach her to lift her foot, kneel, lay down. JC started by teaching her to kneel first. This is the end result of a half hour of teaching, starting with gauging how she'd handle being tied around the ankle and ending with her saying, nah mate. The sun feels good today. Imma just lay here and take a nap.


EDIT: Ignore my narrative. I'm annoying myself with it.



 
#22 ·
Ought to add: I understand professionals do NOT have 1-2 years to work with a horse. And many people want results THIS WEEK! The lady who did so much to help Mia and Trooper? She quit training horses. She sees too much of a disconnect between what the horses need and what the clients expect. Pity because she REALLY cares, and horses know that. Part of her decision was the accumulated impact of injuries, but a lot of it was frustration with what clients demanded.
 
#24 ·
I have no sound with that video!

A lot of your problems with both MIA and Bandit probably were because you were inexperienced. You can read all the books you like but only actually getting on with things gives experience.
Don't get me wrong, I think you have done well achieving what you have but, how long do you think it would take an experienced person to achieve a bond and a relaxed horse?
 
#26 ·
...but, how long do you think it would take an experienced person to achieve a bond and a relaxed horse?
Depends on what you mean by "bond" and "a relaxed horse". When I say it took 1.5 years for Bandit to truly relax, that does not mean he was tense and acting up for 1.5 years. It just took that long for him to decide he was truly safe. We had a lot of good rides before then, but something changed at that point. And no, I don't think "experience" counts for squat on something like that. Seen too many people with decades of experience who have obedient horse, but not truly relaxed ones.

Same with "bond". Mia and I had a "bond" very early on. She always liked me. But a bond by itself isn't enough and too much of the advice I got here on HF - from riders with a ton of experience - was 180 out from what she needed. In fact, MOST of the advice I got from experienced riders around me and here on HF was 180 out from what she needed.

Sorry, but there are a huge number of very experienced riders I would not allow on my horses. A lot of riders with a show or competition background suck as horsemen. They have spent too much time listening to judges and trying to win to ever have really listened to horses.

When I read Denny Emerson's book, two things shocked me:

1- How much we agreed on

and 2- That it took him so long to figure it out!

After 7 decades, he was saying things Mia & Bandit taught me in 8 years. That says something pretty sad.

There is an enormous difference between a horse who feels he must obey and a horse who wants to obey. Huge difference, and yet also subtle. I seriously believe we should ride their minds, not their bodies. Not many instructors - based on books, videos and what I've seen in live instructors - even consider that.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I wasn't going to add any more to this thread but here I am.

I learned to lay horses down from a couple of different guys. One is a guy who bred and trained his own cutting and ranch horses. Supposedly a big name clinician came and wanted to see how he started his colts but obviously, he( the clinician) doesn't teach it.
I will say this, I have seen more horses who have the "pulled plug" or learned helplessness look by over desensitizing methods used and that is widely accepted as training than any horse laid down correctly by someone who knows how to do it for that use.
Laying a horse down does not have to forceful or scary. Knowing how to read the horse as to when he is ready to go down and knowing when they are ready to come back up is a big part of it. Any a-hole can flop a horse on it's head and throw a tarp over him and walk off. (I've seen that done too, not condoning the practice)
Some seem to think that laying a horse down will automatically make him trained after he gets up, no, there is still work to do. ( before and after)

Are there times where a horse losing his feet changes his attitude, you bet. Like Atoka talked about watching a horse fall on his own in a field and see how it changes their outlook. That's where the running W came in effect on some tough horses but that's a different method and conversation.

I don't start my colts by laying them down, I haven't done it in years but I am glad it is something I have learned to do correctly and it was a tool when I needed it. It also gave me an understanding for a practice that most start screaming abuse at the mention of. It is a tool like anything else but it is one that can be easily misused. Another example similar is the use of a spade bit. People who haven't been around them, seen them used in the manner intended think they are evil.

I will also add through the years and horses I have seen laid down and the horses I have laid down and admittedly the one's I flopped on their head, I have never skinned one up or hurt one.
Where I see the most problems and wrecks are the people who are over horsed and don't realize it whether they are attempting to lay a horse down or not.
I think the saving grace for myself and the horses through the years was the moment I could say "I am in over my head and need help".
 
#28 ·
When I read Denny Emerson's book, two things shocked me:

1- How much we agreed on

and 2- That it took him so long to figure it out!

After 7 decades, he was saying things Mia & Bandit taught me in 8 years. That says something pretty sad.

There is an enormous difference between a horse who feels he must obey and a horse who wants to obey. Huge difference, and yet also subtle. I seriously believe we should ride their minds, not their bodies. Not many instructors - based on books, videos and what I've seen in live instructors - even consider that.
I haven't read his book but you have to consider how much horsemanship and training has changed in that time and given the world he was involved in originally, meaning the show world in general not anything against eventing or endurance. Just in the last 20 or 30 things have changed drastically.


I completely agree it is about getting in the horse's head.
I think the greatest advice I was told about training horses was (paraphrasing) - Anyone can learn the mechanics, kick here, pull now. But being able to get in a horse's head is what makes a trainer.
 
#31 ·
My friend I trail ride with? Has that Streakin Six and Dash with Perks filly, Rosie. Rosie is unflappable and a sweet heart, all legs, built for speed.


Right before our last camping trip, she had her farrier come out. She's had some disagreements with him in the past, but he does good work... usually.


THIS TIME... and I'm repeating her story:


He took his giant bald head, and rammed Rosie in the ribs several times... on purpose.



I'm not talking bumped her while getting to close and bending over, we're talking backed up, slammed his sweaty big, bald head, into her ribs repeatedly.


Rosie got antsy, what the hell dude? Why are you doing this? And then didn't want him to pick up her feet, so he snatched up a twitch and wrapped her nose up in it.


THEN HAD THE BALLS to later show her video of him doing it and explained she wouldn't accept his dominance so he had to twitch her



Friend told him to get out, don't come back, never touch my horses again. She's switched farriers.


I don't understand people who do stupid crap over something so routine as trimming hooves.


Question: Am I dumb? Why did they hobble the horse? Our farrier would just ace a horse that's being outlandish and dangerous, get the job done, then it's all over with. I've even seen him get Trigger in a half-nelson over trying to cow kick him... Never have I heard of 'laying one down' over a farrier visit. Only when this is the last hope they have before getting a bullet in the head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jolien
#30 ·
I do not like getting into a no stakes peeing contest online, but, I will never lay a horse down ever. I do not want a dead horse who has no idea how to think. All laying down does it teaches a horse to submit or something worse will happen to it. In the Big Lick world, in order to teach a sored horse not to flinch during an inspection, they are hit with bats, twitches, and even cattle prods so they learn that if they do flinch a bigger hurt comes after it. So they stand there and submit, it is called "Stewarding" and when you steward a horse it gives up.

I am in sports where a horse like that is dangerous, they cannot correct a bad take off in a jump, or figure out which footing is best on a technical trail. That horse depends 100% on the rider, and I am not foolish enough to believe I am correct every single time we go down a trial or on a course. I need a horse who trusts me and in return I can trust to get us through 50 miles of tough trails safely.

When I get the "I need a horse in 30 days" I work with the rider as much as I do the horse. I can get most horses safely going in 30 days but to build up trust with their rider/owner, that takes lots of miles and wet saddle pads. You cannot get that from a trainer, or laying a horse down, or flooding it with stimulus. If you are not educating the rider as well as the horse, than there is the problem. If trainers were honest instead of worrying about the dollars, most problems we have in the horse world wouldn't be so bad.
 
#39 ·
I do not like getting into a no stakes peeing contest online, but, I will never lay a horse down ever. I do not want a dead horse who has no idea how to think. All laying down does it teaches a horse to submit or something worse will happen to it. In the Big Lick world, in order to teach a sored horse not to flinch during an inspection, they are hit with bats, twitches, and even cattle prods so they learn that if they do flinch a bigger hurt comes after it. So they stand there and submit, it is called "Stewarding" and when you steward a horse it gives up.
If you choose not to lay a horse down then don't do it. No one here says it's the cats pajamas only way method to get any thing accomplished with a horse.
However I think your comparison to "stewarding" is pretty far fetched.

I am in sports where a horse like that is dangerous, they cannot correct a bad take off in a jump, or figure out which footing is best on a technical trail. That horse depends 100% on the rider, and I am not foolish enough to believe I am correct every single time we go down a trial or on a course. I need a horse who trusts me and in return I can trust to get us through 50 miles of tough trails safely.
Cutters aren't supposed to be robots they have instinct and are at their best when they think on their own to stop a cow, playing offense not defense. Same with a reined cow horse, going down the fence, probably one of the most dangerous things you can do on a horse as an organized sport inside an arena. Ranch horses in big, steep country gathering cattle especially wild ones. Bombing out through the sagebrush and icy ground to rope a cow or calf.
I've done all these things on horses that were laid down. Horses I'd hardly call submissive for fear of worse.
One of those horses I still own and I'd trust with my life in any of those situations and he trusts me when we get in a tough spot which we have been in together.


You're more than welcome to come pick him out of a lineup of my horses by looking at his lifeless, soulless expression...
 
#32 · (Edited)
The only time I've seen people lay a horse down for the farrier was for mustangs in holding lots (tranqued, tied down, then hooves trimmed/vaccinated, let up) and a lot of people used to throw mules for hoof care. My grandma has a photo of her dad and the hired man putting shoes on the mules. They were rigged with a running W, hog-tied once down, hooves trimmed, shod, then let up. This was about 1930 in the photos. The mules didn't look overly stressed by the ordeal, and there must have been a reason--- the family had draft horses, harness racers, and a few mules for farmwork during the hot, humid parts of summer, so they were used to handling all sorts of horses and nothing else needed to be thrown for care. Grandma's diary entries in the mid-20's speak of some 'army mules' that had been purchased, so likely the same ones, and it's probable that the mules were just bad with their feet all around and this was easier on everyone involved.

One farrier in our area used to use a tilt table for horses that caused problems. They were lead up next to the truck with the table stood on end, tied to it with a strap around the neck and barrel, then the table was tilted, the animal laid on its side, legs tied, and trimmed. This guy could do horses in a few minutes with no fuss, and usually after a few times with the table, a problem horse would stand pretty well because he realized that it wasn't a big deal to have his hooves trimmed. I don't know what happened to him; he's likely retired or passed away by now, but he was quite popular for people who had problem horses or large numbers of unhandled colts who needed a trim without having to have a rodeo or rope anyone to get the job done.

As for farriers--- it's not the farrier's job to train the horse to stand. That should be done ahead of time. You can't really blame a farrier for getting frustrated with a horse that won't stand-- after all, that's time he could spend being paid, and if he's hurt by a horse yanking away, that's income lost. Farriers usually have no patience for horses that won't stand well, nor should they have to. They'll reprimand once or twice, then out comes either the twitch, drugs, or scotch hobble. I won't let a farrier get heavy-handed with my horses, and have certainly sent more than one packing for doing so when it wasn't warranted, but I will also not allow a horse to endanger a farrier or be bad with his feet. If the horse is a problem, even if it's just that day, I'll put him back in a stall and work on him later. Then the farrier isn't inconvenienced, the horse isn't traumatized, and we're all happy.



Some old-school farriers will throw a set of hobbles on the forelegs and scotch hobble one hind leg, then turn the horse loose to 'fight it out' while he works on other horses if one is being a pill. Usually by the time the rest are done, the problem child will stand well-enough to get his trim. Others will tie up one front foot and let them fight themselves until they realize they won't get the foot back, then do the other front, then scotch up one rear at a time. I used to ride my horses up to the neighbors when the farrier was in-- he'd tie up her unhandled yearlings like this and let them fight it out in the round pen while he worked on mine, then by the time mine were done, the colts had pretty much given up the fight and could be trimmed. The owner had no problem with this, and he charged 'combat pay' to her, but it was done nearly every time. By the time they'd been tied a few times, those young horses were reasonably good with their feet and it was no longer an issue. Ideal? No. But it got the job done with no injury to anyone. It's possible your horse was hobbled and then fell on a hard surface-- if the horse fights and goes down onto his knees on a hard surface, he'll beat himself up pretty well. There's NO REASON to tie up a leg, scotch hobble, or hobble break any horse in an area without soft footing. That's just lack of care. If it must be done, do it on soft ground so the horse doesn't hurt himself. And there's really no reason to do it for a horse that is good about being handled.
 
#34 ·
My friend bought a 16 year old mustang (not BLM). She was told by his owner (who had owned him just a few months) that at his recent hoof trim he had not held still well so the farrier had put hobbles on and laid him down on soft footing for the trim. My friend handled his feet before buying him and he was fine.

She called me because when it came time for hoof trimming again, she brought the tools out and he started shaking violently all over. When she picked up his hoof he yanked it away and cow kicked her.

I went over to help her and was kicked (only enough to bruise) several times because after you held his foot for more than a few seconds he'd panic about getting trapped and grab it away and cow kick. This is a horse that had been handled and had his hooves trimmed for many years prior, without issues per his original and only other owner, who my friend contacted later.

The horse was obviously merely terrified, and needed a lot of soothing, of holding his hoof a few seconds and giving it back, of brief rasping and figuring out he wasn't going to get trapped again.
That solution had been terrible for this horse, gave him a phobia about hoof trimming tools, and thankfully we were able to teach him after several trims that he would not be made helpless like that again.
 
#35 ·
My friend bought a 16 year old mustang (not BLM). She was told by his owner (who had owned him just a few months) that at his recent hoof trim he had not held still well so the farrier had put hobbles on and laid him down on soft footing for the trim. My friend handled his feet before buying him and he was fine.
The horse has to be trained to accept hobbles. You can't just throw them on and expect a miracle. If I didn't know 100% certain that a horse was hobble trained, I'd never put them on.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I hobble break everything. But the horse has to be ready for it, has to know how to give to pressure, and has to be able to deal with having his movement restricted. Done properly, the horse will not end up like your friend's mustang. I would actually consider getting the mustang used to ropes around his feet and giving to pressure from his legs/feet, then actually hobble-breaking him correctly. Then if he were ever to end up tangled in wire, he would be far less likely to panic and rip himself to pieces.

It's a handy skill for a horse to have, done correctly they aren't stressed or hurt, and it can save that horse's life. Even my 'afraid of everything/badly abused' Paso Fino was able to be hobbled within a few months of me having him, with no anxiousness or explosions on his part.

If you ever do find you need to lay a horse down, or one is thrown or falls down during a hissy fit, try to keep them down until they relax. If you let them up when they're afraid (sympathetic part of the brain), that reinforces the flight response and they will be even worse next time. Let them switch over to the parasympathetic thought, and they will digest the process and relax. I would suspect had the mustang been trimmed and then they sat with him, rubbed on him, and let him settle the whole problem would have been avoided. He would have realized that he wasn't being hurt. But if he was let up when he was thinking wolves were eating his feet, all he remembers about the situation is fear and will fight even harder the next time.

Photo - Duncan wearing hobbles for the 2nd time. This is all the reaction he did the first time, too. Tried to take a step with one foot, stopped. Tried with the other, stopped. Hopped once or twice, then flicked his ears and relaxed. This is a horse that couldn't stand tied and would go over the panel if his buddies went out of sight around the barn a few months previous. He has learned to give to pressure and to have the confidence that if he's with me, he's safe, thus why the hobbles were a non-event with him. The first few times I hobble, I do it with a long lead rope and halter just in case the horse were to freak out, I can keep him from learning he can run with the hobbles on and if he were to go down, I can keep him from scrambling to get up right away and possibly hurting himself. You can tell if they're going to settle and deal or fight within the first couple of minutes of being hobbled.
 

Attachments

Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top