New Horse Owner Under Unfortunate Circumstaces! - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Wow!!! Yeah that is a lot to take in! I think I'll print your suggestions out and reread them until I'm certain I get it, lol. So as a newb I purchased grass hay out of a farmers CRP lot. Luckily I only bought 20 bales so I guess I'll purchase something better and kind of mix until I'm out of the CRP hay. If nothing else the goats will have plenty of hay. I have found that they can escape from anything. We built them there own pen with a small door in our barn as well so they and Penelope dont have to share a bed down area and the little billy goat kept jumping out of the pen so we had to add height until he could no longer get out, lol. The kids love helping with chores around the house. They actually do go collect eggs on nice days and help feed the chickens as well. Penelope will surely be loved and I certainly want to do whatever I must to ensure her health and happiness. I have arranged for farrier to come the week following her arrival at my place and have made a few calls to trainers but am awaiting a call back from both of them. I will definitly look into the slow feeder and muzzle today. As far as diabetic horses...is this like gestational diabetes in humans? By saying this I mean when the weight comes off will she rid the diabetes or will it stay with her life long? That has got me so worried! I do know he has been working on her weight loss by not turning her out to pasture all day anymore thus keeping her in the drylot more often. I want to thank you all so much for sharing all of your knowledge with me!!! I appreciate it so much!
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post #32 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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Another question....What exactly do you mean by a cresty neck???
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post #33 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 02:17 PM
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Many horses do naturally have an arched neck but a cresty neck is that arch full of fat that can range, in feel, from hard/stale jello, to cement-block hard.

This link written by a DVM describes it much better than I am capable of. Notice that she does comment not every horse with a cresty neck has a metabolic disorder and hopefully Penelope is one of those.

I am so paranoid about cresty necks these days that my eyeballs pop as soon as I see one - lol lol Which is why this article is very informative

A cresty neck is no laughing matter! What could your horse’s cresty neck being telling you… Read more… | Dr. Holly Bedford @theequinevet

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenelopesMom View Post
Wow!!! Yeah that is a lot to take in!Ask 50 times, if you have to

I think I'll print your suggestions out and reread them until I'm certain I get it, lol.I have a whole bunch of stuff in a drawer at the barn that I have printed off - lol lol

So as a newb I purchased grass hay out of a farmers CRP lot. Luckily I only bought 20 bales so I guess I'll purchase something better and kind of mix until I'm out of the CRP hay. If nothing else the goats will have plenty of hay. As long as the hay doesn't smell moldy, you don't see an "explosion" of dust when you cut a bale open, or it's so full of weeds even the goats will turn their noses up, it will be fine

I have found that they can escape from anything. We built them there own pen with a small door in our barn as well so they and Penelope dont have to share a bed down area and the little billy goat kept jumping out of the pen so we had to add height until he could no longer get out, lol. The kids love helping with chores around the house. They actually do go collect eggs on nice days and help feed the chickens as well. You folks are terrific parents! We weren't farming by the time my baby brother was born but, believe me, he did not escape chores and learning mechanics. By many parents standards, he is brutal with my niece and nephew because they all sit down to supper together as many nights as there aren't school/sports. He has heavy limits on cell phone usage and you'd better not have it at the supper table. Neither of them are allowed on the computer except for school work and then they are monitored - lol lol lol

Penelope will surely be loved and I certainly want to do whatever I must to ensure her health and happiness. I have arranged for farrier to come the week following her arrival at my placeAsk him if, by chance, he sees any signs of previous laminitis in her hooves? My monitor really skewes things and it could also be the angle of the picture but Penelope almost looks to be standing back on her hind end, which is common if there is pain in the front hooves.

Don't panic over that, as I could be seeing something that absolutely is not there, but it is still a good idea to ask the farrier since she does have a weight issue

and have made a few calls to trainers but am awaiting a call back from both of them. That will be exciting for you and the children, if you get a trainer who isn't interested in teaching you for the show ring - lol lol

I will definitly look into the slow feeder and muzzle today. As far as diabetic horses...is this like gestational diabetes in humans? By saying this I mean when the weight comes off will she rid the diabetes or will it stay with her life long? It would be with Penelope forever. If you can get the weight off her and keep her on a strict diet before the insulin goes above normal, it won't be so difficult to manage her and also not costly. Less is more with these horses.

I have one horse with true insulin resistance who is very difficult to control. Nothing over-the-counter (OTC) works on him. Right now he is on a prescription herbal blend that my vet has to special order. It is working, so far but Spring grass hasn't sprung up yet, either.

My other metabolic horse has Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) which is the same but different EMS seems to cause the horse to lose muscle mass and in my horse's case, he went from an air fern to a hard keeper.

That has got me so worried! It is prudent to be worried and take the right course of action but, don't let it chew you up. There are quite a few of us on this forum dealing with metabolic issues.

You may find our input confusing and that is because of that word "metabolic". Every horse reacts differently to a diet regimen because every horse has a different metabolism and immune system, just like people.

The only thing my two metabolic horses have in common is that they both need low starch and low sugar diets. In the horse world that is called NSC, a/k/a Non-Structural Carbohydrates. I would think it's the same in humans

I do know he has been working on her weight loss by not turning her out to pasture all day anymore thus keeping her in the drylot more often.I wonder if something happened with her that made him do that? Or do you think the vet told him to get some weight off her?? Is there anyway you can find out specifically what prompted him to do that?

I want to thank you all so much for sharing all of your knowledge with me!!! I appreciate it so much! Please keep asking. Those of us that have had to learn by trial and error are eager to help the next person catch health issues as soon as possible, to get the horse back on track.

In turn, that means a longer and happier life for the horse; also allowing for the Owner to be able to enjoy the horse in terms of riding, instead of just watching it be a pasture pet
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A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #34 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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For the longest time he hadnt taken her to a vet b/c he was laid off so as soon as he got put back to work he took her in. The vet is the one who suggested that she lose weight. My BIL also mentioned that she is pigeon toed...I'm unsure what this means in terms of horses and how it effects them either. I will say that in the years I have been around her I dont believe that she has ever had any instances of laminitis that I was informed of but I'll talk to the BIL about it as well as the farrier.
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post #35 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenelopesMom View Post
For the longest time he hadnt taken her to a vet b/c he was laid off so as soon as he got put back to work he took her in. The vet is the one who suggested that she lose weight. My BIL also mentioned that she is pigeon toed...I'm unsure what this means in terms of horses and how it effects them either.
I have never had to deal with a pigeon-toed horse, so I will hold back from what is an important piece of conversation, because the new farrier needs to know how to trim her to keep her balanced and comfortable.

I hope the farriers and trimmrs come in and comment since Penelope is over-do for a trim. My thought is to NOT try to get her hooves where they need to be in one fell swoop. Rather to do a little bit at a time, maybe every four weeks for awhile if you can afford that frequency:)

He should not try to fix her as, by this time of her life, her leg bones have formed in their direction and the farrier would do more harm than good.

She will be far better left barefoot with the pigeon toe issue. I hope your new farrier doesn't try to convince you to put shoes on her.

Pigeon toe can be a cause for lameness and there are varying degrees.

This link is by Pete Ramey, who is pretty much the "Go To" author of managing horse hooves barefoot.

While the entire page is a good read, my reason for the link is the part where he discusses Pigeon Toed horses. I always try to provide links where I get my information

BALANCE AND THE LIVE SOLE PLANE

Where it says in part:
Quote:
I noticed this in case after case and it slowly became obvious that the sole could usually be trusted for optimum heel balance and toe balance as well.

The same thing holds true in problem horses. The “pigeon-toed” horse is a prime example. When a horse toes in, you will usually find that the joints of the pastern and/or fetlock are set in an inward angulation.

This is readily visible when the hoof is picked up and the angle of the frog turns in relative to the lower leg. If you try to twist the hoof with your hand so that the frog is in line with the leg, you will often find that it is impossible or painful to align the two.

Traditionally, the inside toe has been lowered to try to straighten the leg. Doing this puts enormous strain on the joints and never seems to permanently change things for the horse anyway.

Cutting a straight hoof onto a crooked leg is just as damaging to the joints and tendons as cutting a crooked hoof onto a straight leg! We have to accept what is there to work with.

By allowing a bit of cosmetic imbalance to remain in the hoof, we optimize the way the horse can move with what he has to work with.

A pigeon-toed horse will almost always grow severe flare in the walls on the inside toe. If you have read my book you know that growing out wall flare is one of the top priorities of my trimming.

I have many customers who think I have fixed their pigeon-toed horses, when in fact all I have done is grow out the flare. The 1/8 inch of cosmetic imbalance the horse needs is still there and I haven’t made any attempt to correct it. It’s just imperceptible to the lay eye.

Please understand that I am talking specifically about adult horses here. In a foal, I will go to great lengths to combat any imbalance.

After the joints are set and the bones finish growing, though, it is far better to allow the horse to forge the hoof he wants to. We aren’t smart enough or subtle enough to figure it out for him, but the sole will tell it to you every time.
The above will help you understand the importance of the new farrier knowing how to correctly deal with a pigeon toed horse

This is another reason, it will be good to get Penelope down to a weight where you can feel her ribs at the top of her barrel when you LIGHTLY press

A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.

Last edited by walkinthewalk; 03-06-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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post #36 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 06:17 PM
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No suggestions here but I just wanted to say that you sound like you're doing a very good job at preparing, Penelopesmom! Horse ownership is a lot to think about and everyone is throwing a lot at you, but you're doing wonderful! And if you can get her started the right way and follow the suggestions you've been given, you can know that you are miles ahead of even some people who have owned horses for years! I applaud you.
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post #37 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Saranda View Post
As horses are herd animals and their emotional well being relies heavily on herd hierarchy and communication, you should consider getting another equine - a horse, a donkey, a mule, a pony or a mini - with time. Good luck!
My guy lives alone and does just fine. no companion animals except for our dogs and a few chickens (which he does "play" around with) Our relationship has actually done better because of it. He has stopped spooking and now goes on trails great. I use him to go on trails with my friends *very green and very very spooky horse and he is usually the one who keeps the other one from having a complete mental breakdown.
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post #38 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 09:13 PM
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I think you will have a lot of fun with your new horse.

Several things that I will mention about the kids. They do not need to be allowed to run and play alone in the pasture, especially the little ones. If they get under her feet, they could get hurt. Be really careful about safety with the kids. If you let them ride, make them wear helmets.

Celeste
Carpe Diem!
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post #39 of 45 Old 03-06-2013, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Ok so far I have ordered a hoof pick tonight and the grazing muzzel...In lime green my fav. color I might add, lol. So I need to specifically ask our farrier if he knows how to deal with pigeon toed horses??? I guess I would assume that is something they knew...but Im the newb so I have no clue. I'm going Friday to go feed shopping so I'll update what I decide on then. I have slowly been giving my husband bits of information that you wonderful people have shared with me but I think I'm overwhelming him, lol....Leave it to the wife I guess (No offense guys). Again thanks for all the help!!!
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post #40 of 45 Old 03-07-2013, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
I don't know how you got those pictures posted on $9/month but huge Kudos to you!

The bad news is that I see a cresty neck and Penelope is in a dry lot. Mercy your BIL must be feeding her an obnoxious amount of feed that includes grain.

Looking at the pics, I can see the need to lose a good 100 pounds. If your BIL used a tape to measure her weight, the tape could have been off.

If he took her to a weigh scale and she came in at 1,300 pounds, that Sweet Face needs to get at least 200 pounds off. That is more than 12 months of dieting. The weight loss, like humans, needs to be steady and done in a healthy way.

The cresty neck means she is a candidate for insulin issues, if she doesn't have them already. That can mean laminitis ouchy hooves when walking or an unwillingness to walk too much, or outright founder.

Founder is when the coffin bone inside the hoof (actually looks like a Mini-Me hoof within the hoof), starts to rotate due south. The more rotation the more danger and pain for the horse.

I hope hope hope your vet is up-to-speed on metabolic issues so he can help in the weight loss process.

1. No legume hays such as alfalfa. Weed-free grass/mix hay and the mix should NOT include any sort of clovers or legumes.

She can have bermuda hay but a lot of folks don't like feeding all bermuda because it is so fine and can cause impaction colic in some horses - not all horses as I have four that can eat Coastal Bermuda, a/k/a The Fluffies, very well.

2. I hate to say this but if you can't dry lot her during the day and let her out to pasture at night, a grazing muzzle is in order for the dollface.

2.1 Also a slow feeder hay net for the times she is in lockdown. Horses digestive juices never stop producing; if they have nothing to digest, colic can happen.

Sometimes horses with insulin issues will gobble an entire night's supply of hay in a few hours, thus the reason for the slow-feeder nets.

I order those things from Chicks Saddlery because they sell a muzzle that has huge nostril holes so the horse can breath better.

Grazing muzzles do not stay on 24/7. On in the daylight hours, off at night. I wash mine every night with Dawn Dish Soap and hot water.

The slow feed net is on the same page. Product SF1802 for $7.95.
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Tough-1 Easy Breathe Grazing Muzzle <>

3. Her hooves need done as soon as you can afford to get them done. Hopefully you can get by with getting her trimmed every 5 - 6 weeks. Hooves on diabetic horses are like toes on diabetic humans - they need constant care and maintenance

3.1 If she hasn't had any hoof issues yet, hopefully you can catch her in time to prevent them because, like human diabetes, equine meabolic issues are never reversible -- only controllable with a strict diet and hoof maintenance program.

The disease does not render a horse unridable - to the contrary they need exercise as long as the Owner doesn't want to send them over Oxers, team pen, rope, or do endurance, etc. with them - the stamina just isn't there due to the disease.

Any good feed store knows what Ration Balancers are.

It would be fantastic if you have Triple Crown feeds available because they list their ingredients, where many others do not.

Tractor Supply carries Purina and Nutrena (please leave their own DuMor feed right where it sits in the store:.

FEED Possibilities, depending on availability:

Triple Crown Lite is grain-free and also has a Probiotic in it. http://www.southernstates.com/docs/s...s/55314011.pdf

Triple Crown Low Starch is also grain-free with a probiotic. http://www.evergreenmills.com/docs/t...nLowStarch.pdf

Triple Crown also sells "Ontario Dehy", Equine Nutrition: Triple Crown Equine Nutrition For Low Carbohydrate Horse Diets

My friend has seven acres of rocks and very little grass. She feeds this along with grass hay. She has already laid one horse to rest from insulin resistance (IR) AND Cushings.

Purina has Enrich 32, WellSolve L/S and WellSolve W/C.

Nutrena offers Empower and the SafeChoice line.

If you're confused, you're right up there with the rest of us.

Tractor Supply sells Purina and Nutrena products. Unless you get lucky and one of the sales staff is an experienced horse person, they will not be of much help. Most likely your feed store sales staff won't be, either

I think if an RB poll were taken on this forum, just of these three brands, Triple Crown would win, hands down.

You may have other brands of Ration Balancers available, specific to your area. Sales staff had better at least know the difference between a ration balancer and a bag of feed containing grain.

Not all pelleted feeds are grain-free by the way

I know this is an awful lot for you to digest, but don't get overwhelmed. There is lots of help and encouragement on this forum

Just know that Penelope needs to lose weight for her own good. That means:

No grains whatsover

No alfalfa

No sugary treats (sorry children:)

Either limitied time on grass with a grazing muzzle or dry lot her with hay in a slow feed hay net during the day, and turn her out to grass AFTER the sun goes down and stops producing sugar.

Just an FYI, the shorter the grass, the more sugar and drought grass is worse for containing large amounts of sugar than Spring or Fall grass.

That is because the root system is forcing sugar up to the shoots at Mach 80 to help the grass survive without rain.
So I ordered the muzzle but am unsure how to untroduce her to it. Should I just on day one upon her arrival put it on her or let her settle in for a few days first. Also is it typical for a horse who has never worn one to act up from the new contraption???
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