Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands - Page 13 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Public Land Use
Wild Horses and Burros 5 38.46%
Private Livestock 2 15.38%
Indigenous Native Species 9 69.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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post #121 of 604 Old 08-10-2019, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
I have always been a defender of the underdog. "A 13.2, narrow, weedy, jugheaded horse isn't really adoptable, nor does he have any value even if he was trained." I want them all.
I'm sure you think you do, but in reality, do you?
You love horses. Do you want one you can't ride? Maybe you still say yes.

If you want to keep him more affordably, you can keep him at your house. In order to do that you will need to buy at least several acres. Can make that payment? That makes things more expensive, but also you should realize you can't just have one little horse, because that won't be good for him. You'll need at least two or three.

If you don't want to be tied down to your house because you have to feed the horses every single day, and it's difficult to find people who are able to care for horses when you go on vacation, then you'll need to board your horse. That also would mean you could have just one.

It's going to cost you board, which is probably around $250 a month minimum, farrier care, which is around $50 every six weeks or so, fly spray/vitamins/ointments/necessary small items for about $100 a month, dental care which is about $300 a year, vaccinations and worming which are about $100 a year.

All told you'll spend at least $5,000 a year for that little weedy horse, if you don't have an major vet bills. That is what you are asking people to commit to if they adopt a mustang. Let's see the ad that will sell it: "For only $5,000 a year, you can have a piece of our heritage."

You've never owned a horse, so maybe after a couple of years you lose your job and decide you can't afford this pony anymore. Or maybe you didn't realize that even with the best training horses can still end up kicking and injuring you, biting, or destroying property. Even if a horse sends you to the hospital, he still deserves good care. The horse might not even care you exist, or even meet you at the gate with a glare and turn his back. He'll have his own personality, and one you might not care for. Horses can be more compared to cats in personality than dogs. Very opinionated.

How many things would you be willing to give up in order to make sure this horse had a good life? Cable TV, coffee, phone minutes, gas for long trips, eating out, etc. Now a lot of people make these sacrifices because they don't have large incomes and they love horses that much. But even if they love horses they'll probably want to make those sacrifices for horses they want because they can ride them on trails, take them to horse shows, use them for ranch work, or other things.

So, are you willing to make this sacrifice and commitment to adopt a wild horse? Yourself? Probably not. You may say you're not in a position to do so right now. Well that's most of America, because horses are very expensive and it's only worth it to those who value them so much they will personally sacrifice to have them.

It's not just committing to a horse. It can be committing to keeping a job you don't like that much, and going every day, because you have to keep your income coming in to pay for your horse. It can be committing to going out and doing barn chores when you are sick or the weather is horrible or you just need a "mental break."

You'll see horse people dragging themselves around with braces on their legs or casts, because they couldn't find anyone to cover their chores and the horses still need to be fed and cleaned up after. It's not for those who want to stay inside and be cozy, and it's a dirty, tough lifestyle that leaves us with callused hands and scars.
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post #122 of 604 Old 08-10-2019, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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gotta-trot you are spot-on! I loved your write-up and agree with everything.

Except right now as a tax-payer I currently own 100,000 unwanted horses and I do feel responsible for their health and well-being.
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post #123 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 06:11 AM
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I think "the public" is just tired of everything being killed.

This is what the public sees--millions of sheep and cattle on public lands. Only 100,000 wild horses and half are in pens. They don't realize most are concentrated in certain areas and not spread out so the numbers don't seem to add up. Like why can't you make room for a few horses instead of hogging millions of acres just for other livestock. Then they see articles with info like this--

"Two controversial programs directly remove and kill wildlife that threaten livestock at taxpayer expense. USDA Wildlife Services spends $8 million to kill millions of native predators every year, courtesy of an unknowing public. The BLMís Wild Horses and Burros program also removes thousands of federally protected horses and burros each year from designated wild horse habitat so that, during the ongoing drought, more water and forage are available for ranchers on public assistance. The cost of that program tops $80 million a year. Thatís $380 per rancher to kill predators (wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats and eagles) and ten times that much ($3,809) to get rid of wild horses and burros."

I understand the need to protect livestock but the reason there is no natural predators for horses is because many ranchers want the predators dead--right? I know people who had their horse attacked by a cougar so I know they will go after horses if allowed.

Things like this will never get the public on your side even if you have legitimate reasons for doing it--

https://blog.humanesociety.org/2019/...the-state.html

I guess predators have to be controlled too--of course I don't want them attacking my pets either. It's not just predators being killed though. What about the buffalo, bighorn sheep, prairie dogs--

"Wildlife Services, an arm of the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), killed 3.2 million wild animals in 2015 - including bobcats, prairie dogs, coyotes and foxes - by trapping, shooting and poisoning, which can also unintentionally kill endangered species and even family pets. The slaughter last year was up half a million animals, from 2.7 million in 2014. "

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...rks-bison-elk/

https://patch.com/colorado/across-co...p-public-lands

The articles indicate ranchers as the cause for all the killing. Are the articles wrong??

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post #124 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
Interesting responses.

As we, mere mortals (Queens, Dictators, Queen-Dictators [very clever], Senators, commoners) bicker and fight over who should do what The Universe Supreme --Mother Nature, is going to hit-the-reset: floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis --BOOM! with one colossal clash of thunder followed by the lighting-bolt...

--RESET completed.

Enough is Enough.

The horses and the environment need us to stop bickering and agree on a plan. Since slaughter is so controversial and the US Gov't has recently tightened restrictions on the slaughter of US horses, can we please continue brainstorming ideas?

YES! Arizona and Nevada, please keep fighting for your States rights, but in the meantime, let us work together for the 100,000 innocent horses and burros that need our help. When we fix the horse problem, we will stop the degradation of our public lands.

If you want the Federal Gov't to thin horse herds like they thin (sharpshoot) the deers at Valley Forge, get Congress to pass a law.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion.
If Congress does anything sane and sensible about wild horses, I will eat my hat, a nice Aussie-style felt. There are too many completely conflicting human interests. And believe me, Congress is only concerned with voters, publicity, and donations, not horses nor ecosystems. Even thought the very best solution for the ecosystem is to remove most of the horses, there is no market for them, whether for food or riding. Nor can a market be created on the scale needed. City people (most voters) will not allow responsible management, because it involves killing animals. City people fear and loathe death, I've noticed -- but only of the cute and photogenic, they care nothing at all about the ugly, scaly, and crawly. I'm not so big on death myself, but folks, Mother Nature does not agree. In the natural history of North America, at one time dozens of different species of horses throve and coexisted. They were the dominant herbivore genus. Then they ALL died out. Was this a tragedy? Nope. Just the world turning. Humans could take a few tips, when playing God.
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post #125 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Avna, unfortunately, you are correct, you won't be eating your nice Aussie-style felt hat any time soon. Yes, politics, politics, and politics seem to be the root cause. Our governing parties control us and our world. Vote!

Pasomountain, those articles are heartwrenching. Patch (Nov2018) domestic sheep vs. wild bighorn sheep with domestic winning. NatGeo (July2019) man is forced to manage natural migratory patterns of wild elk and bison. Yes, livestock seems to be winning over native elk, buffalo, sheep, wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats, foxes,...

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post #126 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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What to do with America's 100,000 excess of horses?

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post #127 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasomountain View Post
....The articles indicate ranchers as the cause for all the killing. Are the articles wrong??
In a word? YES!

And those sorts of articles is why our management of mustangs is all screwed up.

"This is what the public sees--millions of sheep and cattle on public lands. Only 100,000 wild horses and half are in pens...why can't you make room for a few horses instead of hogging millions of acres just for other livestock."

First, there are nearly 150,000 mustangs total. But...millions of acres are not being hogged by livestock. Livestock are move on and OFF public lands. They pass THROUGH public lands. The ones I know of - Arizona and Utah - involve grazing for a few MONTHS, when there is plenty to eat.

Mustangs live there 12 months a year. And it is during the winter, when food is scarce, that the range is beaten down. Mustangs and livestock coexist in many areas, during the summer. Then the livestock are removed and the mustangs remain. During the winter.

Drought? The rancher is told to cut his numbers or to enter later or leave earlier. Mustangs? Still there. But the mustang enthusiasts, by and large, live in cities and don't own horses. They have never SEEN a wild mustang. And they know ZERO about managing range land. Nor do they want to learn!

Livestock are allowed to eat the excess and are controlled. To the day. Mustangs need to eat when there is no excess. And are uncontrolled.

"The BLMís Wild Horses and Burros program also removes thousands of federally protected horses and burros each year from designated wild horse habitat so that, during the ongoing drought, more water and forage are available for ranchers on public assistance."

Lie. Simply a lie. A deliberate lie. When droughts come, it is the livestock that get removed BECAUSE THEY CAN BE! Unlike the mustangs.

"but the reason there is no natural predators for horses is because many ranchers want the predators dead--right?"

Wrong! When horses got loose in the West in the 1600s, they multiplied into the millions. Even in 1680, or 1750, when no white man had been there, the predators of North America were unable to control horse populations. Cougars and bears won't begin to control the growth of horse herds because even when no white man lived in the west, they could not do so. So how can they do so now?!

But activists make money blowing smoke up the rumps of people with no range or wildlife experience. Or knowledge of history.

"It's not just predators being killed though. What about the buffalo, bighorn sheep, prairie dogs..."

Really? We've reintroduced bighorn sheep in many areas. Buffalo are in no danger of being hunted down. Prairie dogs are in no danger either. From one of your links:

"Domestic sheep transmit the deadly virus to bighorns when the two species mingle on public lands. Wildlife officials are supposed to make sure that wild and domestic sheep don't interact. But according to a trove of Colorado Parks and Wildlife documents recently obtained by High Country News, they mingle more frequently than previously known. And though failures on the part of ranchers, federal agencies and state wildlife managers are often to blame, it's always the bighorns that pay the price....Though their current population numbers pale in comparison to the distant past, bighorn sheep appear to be expanding their range in southwest Colorado, a sign that the populations are healthy."

Now, here is the experience of a friend of mine with sheep. He used to run them through this area. They were present for about a week each year - yes, that is one WEEK a year:


His permit was revoked for fear that brief exposure of his sheep might harm bighorn populations. Twenty years later, disease swept through the area, killing most of the bighorn sheep. As my old college room mate put it, "At least they can't blame me!" But of course, they can. They always do. You can't get people to support you unless you are fighting "evil XXX".

In Utah, he says the grazing is simple. If it conflicts with the desires of hunters or city people, it is removed. Period. The idea that ranchers control government is silly. Not nearly enough votes or $$. Politicians follow votes.

Nor does predator control work the way you are told, but like most things on the range, it is hard to explain reality to people whose knowledge is based on activist websites. Who have never read a text on range management. Or talked to a single rancher. Or spent a single day on the land affected.

"Yes, livestock seems to be winning over native elk, buffalo, sheep, wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats, foxes,..." - @WildAbtHorses

Good grief! Step away from the Internet. Leave YouTube. Elk, buffalo, bighorns, coyotes, bears, cougars - there are MORE NOW than 30 years ago! Less grazing. Who is winning? I've had a 40 year history of loving the Manti Mountains in Utah. I've SEEN the changes. Predators are doing better - except the coyotes. Coyotes are starting to drop because the other predators are taking their place.

This is why I want BLM land handed over to the states. People who have never been IN a state want to say how the land is managed. The people who live there, who see things with their own eyes, whose families have been there for generations, are shouted down by YouTube.

My former room mate is the 5th generation living where he does. Two of his sons are taking over the ranch he built, and he looks forward to his grandsons someday ranching in the country he has lived in all of his life. Who loves the land more - the family who has lived there for generations or a long-term visitor like me? Someone who has ridden an estimated 50-60,000 miles during his life there, or someone like me who rides there every other year for a day?

And who cares more - someone like me, or someone who has never, ever seen the Manti Mountains?

Seems obvious to me, but I'm not a YouTube personality....

PS: My wife and I are still seriously considering moving to Ritchfield Utah to be closer to that mountain range. Part of me wants to spend my remaining life close to it. Maybe, just maybe, I care in a way folks who have never been in Utah do not.

Also - last week, we drove from Show Low AZ through Globe and then on home. Even after all my years in Arizona, I forget how VAST the forests of Arizona are. It is humbling. They go on for mile after mile after mile. As far as you can see. How many people outside of Arizona even know?

PSS: @Avna , I agree! It is frustrating, not being ABLE to play God. But this world is so much bigger than us. I'll eat the sweaty Canadian Tilley hat in my avatar. But it's pretty safe...

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by bsms; 08-11-2019 at 11:56 AM.
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post #128 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 12:28 PM
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So who are people going to blame when livestock is off public ground?
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post #129 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverMaple View Post
We have to decrease the population, especially of aged horses in the holding pens.
You don't think they are just trying to stale mate this till most of those guys pass naturally?

I always wonder how long they can sustain the budget they have now.
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post #130 of 604 Old 08-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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Picture in Modic County, CA.

Guess which side is the riparian maintained by a livestock permit holder who is on the permit for a limited amount of days and required to keep cattle off stream banks?

Which side is the wild horses on who are not maintained?
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