Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands - Page 22 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Public Land Use
Wild Horses and Burros 5 38.46%
Private Livestock 2 15.38%
Indigenous Native Species 9 69.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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post #211 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks "this" is a whole new world for me and OMG what a world.

It appears to me that the Government is not working in the best interest of the Animal Rights folks nor the best interest of the horses. But fighting the system is not working to resolve the problem (just to stop inhumane acts, which is really good). It seems to me that the Government has been trying to put an itsy bitsy highly infected bandaid on a gigantic wound.

We need to pool all this money being spent and redirect it to humanely resolving the problem.

I now have a new list to contact:
Georgetown Law
Review Journal
Paulick Report
Capital Press
Animal Welfare Institute
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post #212 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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Yes, reality can be quite a shock. I have lived way too many of my 77 years in a fantasy land of a creation of my own mind, a mental virtual reality.

This may sound wrong but the best thing that can be done for the thousands of horses being shipped out of the US for slaughter is to re-open slaughter houses in the US with stringent handling regulations and a design that allowed the handling of horses to be as humane as it is for cattle using Temple Grandin's designs. And laws against shipping horses to other countries for slaughter.

BTW, Ginger Kathrens of the Cloud Foundation is a wonderful wonderful woman with a heart of gold. No one loves horses and particularly mustangs as much as she does. She hunted down Cloud and filmed him for 20 years. I have the DVD and was a member of the Cloud Foundation for a couple of years. She is the strongest and most influential advocate for mustangs out there. There were many many announcements about how lawsuits had stopped the BLM from doing things they opposed, particularly sterilization.

As wonderful as I think she is, I also believe she is misguided by her love for horses. Just as the people who stopped the slaughter in the US and by doing so did a huge disservice to horses, I believe she is also. As I say that I know she is intelligent and thoughtful and has experience that I will never meet. Sometimes a parent can love their children so intensely that they cannot see when they do wrong. In a similar way, I suspect she just cannot bear to see the reality of the situation and it's future eventuality.

BTW, Ginger is on the BLM Advisory Board as is Ben Masters of the film unBranded which I also have. Ben and three friends adopted 16 mustangs and rode them from Mexico to Canada to raise mustang awareness and increase adoptions. Ben stated he must have been naive as there was no effect on adoptions.

Here is an article on H.R. 7239 intended to curb abuse of the EAJA. Apparently it did not do enough to stop lawsuits for mustang sterilization. It might be educational to investigate how much money and resources were required to write and pass the bill. And then perhaps contacting the American Cattlemen's Association in an attempt to "pick their brains".

It might be pointed out to them that if they could do something that would allow the sterilization of mustangs the number competing for forage their cows grazed on would soon start to drop. People are people and there's gotta be something in it for them.

The article and associated readings will give you an idea of what working with congress really means.

https://www.agweb.com/article/house-...A-news-release
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post #213 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 02:11 PM
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The sterilization programs are viewed as 'unnatural' and 'will have a negative effect on the social aspect of the horses' but apparently mares breeding every year, dying due to starvation while trying to feed a foal, and dying during birth are ok with these folks. I saw an article yesterday that a new study is showing that sterilization for mares on the Chincoteague ponies has increased the life span of mares from an average of less than 7 years, to well over 20 years. So, on a well-managed herd like the Chincoteague horses, this is working nicely. However, is that applicable to the vast expanses of the western plains and the huge numbers of mustangs currently on federal land? Probably not. The Chincoteague horses are so used to people and in such a small area that injecting the mares isn't too hard on them. Chasing down wary and wild herds in Nevada to inject the mares becomes a very stressful and very expensive operation indeed. And say it's done successfully-- ok, now we have mares living three to four times as long, so that's increasing stress on the land, too.

Nobody is going to cry 'cruel' about the holding pens as long as the horses are in decent condition with access to water and food. They don't count as a 'wild animal in captivity' because horses are not considered an indigenous species. A mustang is no more 'wild' than a feral cat under the law. When the humane laws in the US take months or years to turn on people who are legitimately leaving animals with no food, water, or shelter on properties littered with dead and dying horses, nobody is going to care that the BLM has horses in pens as long as they're being fed/watered.

So we're back to the million dollar question--- how do you cut the numbers on the ranges down, reduce the numbers in pens, and get anything done without a 'hard cull' to get down to manageable numbers? You can't.
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post #214 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 02:51 PM
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Darting sterilization was a no go from the beginning for areas like Nevada. When I mention sterilization I'm talking surgical for both males and females. It was the surgical for females that Cloud and others opposed as unsafe. I cannot speak to that as I do not know but dying in 7 years for not being sterilized doesn't sound very safe either.


Yes, if they live a long 20-25 years when sterilized, that leaves them on the range much longer, but it eliminates the offspring being there. In time the numbers would have to drop by definition. At some point the BLM would have to use their studies to make an educated judgment on how many mares to leave intact to keep the numbers from dropping too low.


Surgical sterilization for mares is I'm sure an expensive proposition but apparently it is less than the long term care of them and their offspring.


Both Ginger and Ben care deeply about mustangs and are both on the advisory board. But on slaughter they voted opposite. Ben was just frustrated over the lawsuits against sterilization which he supports as stated in an email to me.


It's a dilemma.......
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post #215 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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SilverMaple asks, "how do you cut the numbers on the ranges down, reduce the numbers in pens, and get anything done without a 'hard cull' to get down to manageable numbers?" Someone must have a viable suggestion.

Methods of sterilization, darting to me, sounds like the most humane way. Vs. Spaying Wild Horse Mares "BLM twice has been stopped from committing abject abuse with the archaic procedure they want to use on these mares. Standing in chutes, no anesthesia, wire hoop to grab and rip out ovaries. Turn them loose. Veterinarian associations are completely against this. It is barbaric. -ziggypop on Paulick Report

Contacted 24 Oregon State University veterinary staff*and 22 Nevada representatives: https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/Legislator/A/Senate

At the October 30-31,2019 BLM Wild Horse Advisory meeting we need a unified voice to speak clearly and concisely about a viable plan to manage wild horses in the wild and in holding pens.
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post #216 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 05:30 PM
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@WildAbtHorses - I give you credit for trying to research the issue. I hope you get to come west and see, and even work with/for, the feral horses someday soon.

I never understood the objection to surgical sterilization or mares. It's permanent. Unlike darting. Requires a one- time interference by humans versus annually hoping to get the right mares at the right time. Driving around fragile ecosystems. When the weather even allows it

And ziggypop? When did he become an expert? . He's even wrong about veterinary associations being against surgical sterilization. But he can sure choose words to invoke emotion in people who think they care about the feral horses. Shame on him.

BTW - I know several people who spay their extra mares to prevent accidental breeding. I have spayed the mares I've owned to avoid problems in the remuda.

With all the trauma related to heat cycles and pregnancy, I'm hardly subjecting horses to ziggypop's illusion of "abject cruelty."
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post #217 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 06:20 PM
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It is a long shot, but maybe this will help:

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) took its first step in moving Washington-based staff out West...

"The Department of Interior announced in July that it would leave just 61 BLM employees in the capital and move about 300 other Washington-based employees to offices closer to the public lands they manage....BLM head William Pendley encouraged staffers to apply for vacant positions that have been moved out West as part of the agency’s effort to relocate most of its D.C.-based staff."
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #218 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
It is a long shot, but maybe this will help:

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) took its first step in moving Washington-based staff out West...

"The Department of Interior announced in July that it would leave just 61 BLM employees in the capital and move about 300 other Washington-based employees to offices closer to the public lands they manage....BLM head William Pendley encouraged staffers to apply for vacant positions that have been moved out West as part of the agency’s effort to relocate most of its D.C.-based staff."
That seems very sensible. I hope it does help the situation for the horses and all wildlife.
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post #219 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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just wrote William Pendley...

Yes, move BLM positions closer to the horses, wildlife, livestock, and ecosystems they manage but fill those positions with individuals that know the land and understand the issues. Leave the Washington, D.C. personnel in D.C. as support personnel.

Nowhere in the article or in the comments were wild horses mentioned the chatter was all about staff salaries.

And, of course, I asked William Pendley to join the discussion on HorseForum.
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post #220 of 685 Old 08-24-2019, 09:17 PM
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Bottom line. As long as there are more foals than adoptees, the population will continue to grow. Euthanize the babies or prevent their birth.


Darting won't do it. Surgical is the ONLY viable solution. If there is another, I'd like to hear it.


The article below rates the surgical procedure at 2% failure. That sounded and sounds drastic to me. But the article went on to say that was about the same as cats and dogs in the 50's when it began. Procedures have improved with experience and failures are few and far between.


It may be a hard choice, but which is best. 2% die as a result of the procedure or 98% going to holding pens or slaughter. That's more or less the choice we're looking at.


The pictures show a guy with his arm in a clear plastic glove up to his arm pits with his arm inserted into the mare. Well, shoot. I saw that many a time with cows 65 and more years ago. They insert the arm into the rectum and guide a small tube into the uterus by feeling through the intestine wall with the other hand.


That may sound horrible to the uninitiated, but it's no problem. The squeamish should watch a stallion sink his teeth into a mare's neck during breeding. Ouch! I'll bet that's as painful as the spaying. And death at 7 years? That's not good either. Is that what the mustang advocates really really want???


They really need to do some honest deep think.


https://www.animals24-7.org/2018/11/...y-been-tested/
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