Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands - Page 38 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Public Land Use
Wild Horses and Burros 5 38.46%
Private Livestock 2 15.38%
Indigenous Native Species 9 69.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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post #371 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverMaple View Post
This. There are already plenty of horses to fill the 'jack of all trades/nice pleasure/trail horse' market. I'd much rather have a Morgan or the old Crabbet style Arab or an all-around Quarter Horse/Paint than a Mustang....


Gaited horses are now gobbling up a large share of the pleasure horse/trail horse market as people (especially older people with sore backs/knees/hips) realize how nice it is to 'ride the glide' rather than trot, which also takes out a lot of homes that may have previously considered a mustang. Families cutting down from 10 horses to 2 who may have considered a mustang now need a horse that can be competitive at local open shows, run barrels or rope on Tuesday night jackpots, and go trail riding. Out go the 'pleasure horses' and in comes a more versatile mount with the right breeding behind him to be pretty, competitive, and marketable should they need to sell him.

Exactly! Theirs an over-abundance of nice, wholly domestic horses that could fulfill the need for the pleasure/trail horse market multiple times over in America. Mustangs you need to tame and train (Unless you adopt a "Mustang Makeover" contestant or a horse that's been thru the prison system) before they can even start being useful. And then you have to face the "Mustang stigma" if you want to sell the horse later on (Just.... good luck with that if you so happen to live in ranch country).


With all of that in mind, the Mustang simply has little to no place in modern society. People don't rush out to adopt them unless they've already been tamed and trained (Totally understandable, since the vast majority of average Joe's simply aren't up for the effort), think that a particular horse is "pretty", get all caught up in the "magic of owning a piece of American history" or simply because they're a horse trainer (Or fancy themselves one anyway) and want to flex their training muscles a bit by taking a feral animal and turning it into a competitive star just to prove that they can/it can be done.
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post #372 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the Washington Post link. "Very likely the wild horse situation will remain as it has for many years." Karin Brulliard

Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education site: "Washington Post; Touches the Surface of Wild Horse Controversy"
https://wildhorseeducation.org/autho...seslauraleigh/
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post #373 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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The Washington Post article stated, "... the 1971 federal law that protects wild horses and burros allows the interior secretary to euthanize older and unadopted animals or sell them for slaughter."

Is this true? If so, then Velma Bronn Johnston — a.k.a. “Wild Horse Annie” knew that the wild horse populations needed to be regulated.

In the Washington Post article "... an issue so contentious that Congress, animal advocates, conservationists, ranchers and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have long been in a stalemate."

BREAKS MY HEART - The horses have to suffer while we humans argue and debate what needs to be done. A stalemate!?!

A fifty (50) YEAR stalemate! HELP!!!
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post #374 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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Washington Post: "Over three years, major ranching and hunting organizations, represented by [J.J.] Goicoechea [Nevada's State Veterinarian] and others, quietly negotiated with animal welfare groups, including the Humane Society of the United States. These strange bedfellows recently unveiled a wild horse proposal that they say meets both sides’ goals: It keeps mustangs alive, and it gets a lot more off the land."

Why quietly negotiated? Why do they consider them "strange bedfellows" Don't we all want to do right by these horses?!?

Are they saying it will cost $50 million a year to provide birth control to wild horses? and the round-ups will continue as they have for the last 50 years. So the only thing changing is providing more fertility control?

"Over four hours, two helicopters pushed 117 horses into the trap." THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY!!!

I hope Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education, is being a bit melodramatic? But what if she isn't?
“If this proposal gets passed by Congress in any form, the program will collapse. Wild horses will be in danger of slaughter and mass killing once more. Wild herds will be decimated in numbers, brutalized through surgical experimentation, and their habitat will be destroyed by profit driven interests with no protections. In addition our voice to fight back will be gutted.”
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post #375 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 08:51 PM
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"Quietly" because if any of the "save every icon of the American West" people heard about it, they would protest and/or sue.

Yes. Laura Leigh is exaggerating with her hyperbolic language.

The Wild Horse and Burro Act protects the equids.
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post #376 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
The Washington Post article stated, "... the 1971 federal law that protects wild horses and burros allows the interior secretary to euthanize older and unadopted animals or sell them for slaughter."

Is this true? If so, then Velma Bronn Johnston — a.k.a. “Wild Horse Annie” knew that the wild horse populations needed to be regulated.

The original 1971 act contained no provisions for population management, it's had to be amended several times in attempts to better manage the growing numbers of Mustangs.

The adoption program didn't start until 1973, didn't actually give title to the "adopters" (Legally the Mustangs remained property of the federal government) and was only implemented in the Pryor Mountain Wild Horse Range (Home to the infamous Cloud and his band).

The adoption program went nationwide in 1976 (Still effectively as a life-long foster program), this is the same year that helicopters and motorized vehicles were authorized to gather and transport Mustangs.

It wasn't until 1978 that the adoption program took on it's modern-day form (Four horses per year, title relinquished to adopter after one year has passed) and the BLM finally established the HMA's (Yes, really it did in fact take that long), began taking inventory of the herds, determine and set-up AML's and mandated yearly updated horse counts.

So needless to say, the original act was extremely poorly designed to say the least.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
In the Washington Post article "... an issue so contentious that Congress, animal advocates, conservationists, ranchers and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have long been in a stalemate."

BREAKS MY HEART - The horses have to suffer while we humans argue and debate what needs to be done. A stalemate!?!

A fifty (50) YEAR stalemate! HELP!!!

Now you finally see why this is such a problem and why it's only gotten worse in years gone by. The Mustangs can't be properly managed because Congress cuts money from the program, the "animal advocates" are convinced that the BLM and Forest Service are blood-thirsty murderers out to drive the animals to extinction, conservationists would rather the horses be eliminated altogether because they're a non-native species, the ranchers just want to make a living on land that's already not particularly productive.... Leaving the BLM essentially in the lurch, unable to please anybody.

And this is the result- Nobody is happy or willing to compromise and the horses continue to suffer for it.
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post #377 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 09:13 PM
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I've expired my WPost allotment but getting the jist anyhow.


Thinking that the majority over five years old have their minds pretty much made up with little chance of change, which leaves only option of compromise. Of course that will take a lot of hammering to hammer out.


Going back to Temple Grandin, who I would really like to ask in person about her support of US slaughter. I'm also wondering how she feels about the current proposal to outlaw shipping across the border for slaughter as her main problem seemed to be lack of inspection in over the border houses.


Anyhow, what I wanted to mention was that Grandin first encountered cattle squeeze chutes at high school age and was amazed that it seemed to calm the cattle. She then with the help of her shop teacher constructed one for herself that was operated by air pressure by the one in the chute. She found it calmed her immensely, and of course as many know this went on to be the hug machine and gained would wide popularity. I even read recently where a hug backpack had been developed.


A head lock can be applied to a cow in a squeeze chute with out her hardly noticing it, a lock which holds the head fairly well, depending on the size of the cow.


During the last five years I have assisted in moving hundreds of cattle through a squeeze chute and can personally attest to this. The ranch had around 400 head of brood cows alone that needed to be treated at least once per year.


However, this does not work with horses. Not even the slaughter house Grandin designed had anything that remotely held a horse as does a cattle squeeze chute.


And there is no head or neck restraint. Even a trained calm horse will not easily allow strange object to approach his head. This is why it is so difficult to kill a horse with the captive bolt gun. And that is after a horrific battle to the stunning position.


If a horse were held in a cattle squeeze chute as cattle are, the horse will not calm but will continue to struggle until the horse can no longer struggle. But the slaughter house cannot wait that long. 13 shots to bring the one horse down in the video.


Think about it. A horse gives 20 years of his life in service to man and man says, "so sorry, there''s just no place for you anymore. This is modern society. Bye bye."


Who the HELLO have we become????
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post #378 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
Washington Post: "Over three years, major ranching and hunting organizations, represented by [J.J.] Goicoechea [Nevada's State Veterinarian] and others, quietly negotiated with animal welfare groups, including the Humane Society of the United States. These strange bedfellows recently unveiled a wild horse proposal that they say meets both sides’ goals: It keeps mustangs alive, and it gets a lot more off the land."

Why quietly negotiated? Why do they consider them "strange bedfellows" Don't we all want to do right by these horses?!?
Because otherwise the "advocates" (IE: The Cloud Foundation, Skydog Sanctuary, American Wild Horse Campaign and countless others) would start screaming bloody murder, rile the public up and begin suing to stop any kind of progress or form of management. These people genuinely believe that there aren't enough Mustangs, not that they're over-populated! They want the horses in holding set free, every cow and sheep removed from public land permanently, Mustangs on every single square foot of public land and no more round-ups or gathers!

Some of them are even against fertility control! PZP is a "pesticide" now, gelding stallions "changes herd dynamics", spaying mares is "barbaric" and god forbid you adopt out the foals and yearlings because that's "tearing families apart!".

And unfortunately, these people are for more Internet savvy then the BLM is- They had Facebook pages dedicated to their "cause" long before the BLM decided to start adopting horses over the Internet! So they're achieved a strong toe-hold and now have the public in their grasp. And since the public has next to no earthly idea about horses (Let alone The West or humane management), they have a lot of clout and political power.


So yes, seeing just one "advocate" group working with the BLM is strange indeed. I have no problem seeing why they're tried to keep quiet about it, because now that the cat's out of the bag... the other advocacy groups are calling them "traitors" and "betrayers"!


But people do want to do right by the horses, it's just that their not the ones with the most power in this situation sadly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
Are they saying it will cost $50 million a year to provide birth control to wild horses? and the round-ups will continue as they have for the last 50 years. So the only thing changing is providing more fertility control?
It's actually $50 million on-top of the BLM's usual budget of $80 million, so $130 million in all. Definitely a decent chunk of change. But it wouldn't just be for birth control (There would be a ton more of that yes), it would be for rounding up ten's of thousands of horses for the next decade or so, moving them and the horse's currently in holding out to "sustainable" pastures and carrying for them for the rest of their natural lifespan. None of that comes cheap. In fact, that's probably the most expensive route that they could've gone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
"Over four hours, two helicopters pushed 117 horses into the trap." THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY!!!
Actually, helicopter gathering is the "better way". The truth is, these horses literally roam over areas of 100's if not thousands of square miles... you simply can't effectively round-up areas as huge as that without using helicopters. The helicopters themselves are flown by highly-trained pilots, the horses are actually trotted the majority of the way to the trap and are only forced to "run" the few hundred feet (With the help of a Judas horse to lead the way). Even Temple Grandin has praised the helicopter method of gathering- https://www.grandin.com/references/h....mustangs.html



Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
I hope Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education, is being a bit melodramatic? But what if she isn't?
“If this proposal gets passed by Congress in any form, the program will collapse. Wild horses will be in danger of slaughter and mass killing once more. Wild herds will be decimated in numbers, brutalized through surgical experimentation, and their habitat will be destroyed by profit driven interests with no protections. In addition our voice to fight back will be gutted.”
Yes, Laura Leigh is being melodramatic. As she always is. Despite her blog being called "Wild Horse Education", it doesn't actually have any educational value. She over-dramatizes gatherings, grossly anthropomorphizes the horses themselves, uses emotional language to deliberately get people upset and is one of those "advocates" that I mentioned earlier. You know, the ones who just want the Mustangs to run amuck with no management.

Do not listen to her or anything that she says.


Read this article instead-- http://www.rangemagazine.com/feature...ge-mustang.pdf

It goes back to 2011, but basically the situation is exactly the same. Some interesting history about Wild Horse Annie in there too.
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post #379 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 09:44 PM
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I've expired my WPost allotment but getting the jist anyhow.
Thinking that the majority over five years old have their minds pretty much made up with little chance of change, which leaves only option of compromise. Of course that will take a lot of hammering to hammer out.
You're far more optimistic than I am. Compromise seems to be a lost art nowadays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Going back to Temple Grandin, who I would really like to ask in person about her support of US slaughter. I'm also wondering how she feels about the current proposal to outlaw shipping across the border for slaughter as her main problem seemed to be lack of inspection in over the border houses.
I'd love to have a chat with her myself also! I deeply admire her and she's been one of my role models for the last decade or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Anyhow, what I wanted to mention was that Grandin first encountered cattle squeeze chutes at high school age and was amazed that it seemed to calm the cattle. She then with the help of her shop teacher constructed one for herself that was operated by air pressure by the one in the chute. She found it calmed her immensely, and of course as many know this went on to be the hug machine and gained would wide popularity. I even read recently where a hug backpack had been developed.


A head lock can be applied to a cow in a squeeze chute with out her hardly noticing it, a lock which holds the head fairly well, depending on the size of the cow.


During the last five years I have assisted in moving hundreds of cattle through a squeeze chute and can personally attest to this. The ranch had around 400 head of brood cows alone that needed to be treated at least once per year.


However, this does not work with horses. Not even the slaughter house Grandin designed had anything that remotely held a horse as does a cattle squeeze chute.


And there is no head or neck restraint. Even a trained calm horse will not easily allow strange object to approach his head. This is why it is so difficult to kill a horse with the captive bolt gun. And that is after a horrific battle to the stunning position.


If a horse were held in a cattle squeeze chute as cattle are, the horse will not calm but will continue to struggle until the horse can no longer struggle. But the slaughter house cannot wait that long. 13 shots to bring the one horse down in the video.
You are aware that squeeze-chutes for horses exist, right? What do you think the BLM uses to freeze-brand the Mustangs? They certainly don't just walk up to them in a pen! The horses are driven thru a funneling system and then each horse individually enters the chute. By all accounts, it's quite secure (And padded even!) and allows easy access to virtually any part of the animal- Including yes, the neck.

I see no reason why slaughter-plants who wish to process horses can't be modified to better handle them. The key to stunning horses correctly is to not do it immediately, wait for the horse to hold still and then go up and stun it. Not as fast as cattle no, but we aren't exactly talking hours of waiting here. Not even five minutes! Probably thirty seconds to a minute, tops. (Which is actually considered pretty fast for cattle processing.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Think about it. A horse gives 20 years of his life in service to man and man says, "so sorry, there''s just no place for you anymore. This is modern society. Bye bye."


Who the HELLO have we become????
Life unfortunately isn't particularly pretty, it's actually quite ugly. While it's a nice fantasy to imagine every old horse grazing happily in Black Beauty's apple orchard for the rest of their days, that simply isn't possible for most people to provide.

Old horses are still large, expensive animals and many people can't afford to take care of them for another five to ten years. Regardless of how long the horse has usefully served them previously. Humane slaughter should be a perfectly acceptable end for old horses.
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post #380 of 680 Old 09-19-2019, 10:39 PM
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You are aware that squeeze-chutes for horses exist, right?

No, actually I am not, never seen one. I will search for pictures and design. Lots of holes in my knowledge.


I posted on one post that I would be hard put to support a law making it illegal for a person to euthanize their horse, or dog or cat for that matter.


If slaughter could be as humane as cattle for transport, and handling in the slaughter house, as humane as euthanizing, I would be hard put to oppose that also, although admittedly I would be hard put to support it also.


"Life isn't pretty" is not an acceptable reason to shrug and just accept that which is not pretty.


SilverMaple RE: "Where are you finding draft horses for $100?"


Five years ago when I first became associated with the ranch I stayed on for five years they had a herd of 23 horses. The decision was made to sell 7 as they really didn't need that many horses. When I asked which, Hondo was one of them. They were all to be sold for $75 and picked up at the ranch by the buyer. I requested to purchase Hondo. He was given to me as a gift with the caution that he was unsafe to ride above a walk. I learned later that the buyer was indeed a kill buyer that picked up horses from various ranches in the area.



Hondo was my first horse, remains my only horse, and will likely remain being my only horse.


Over the last five+ years Hondo has given me some of the best, if not the best, years of my so far 77 year life. I cannot imagine having left this earth without the experiences I've had with Hondo. I'm not being melodramatic. I absolutely mean what I'm saying.


Reminds me of the father of a friend of my youngest son who scoffed at people owning dogs and the money they spent on them.


Then his two sons convinced or connived or both for their mother to allow them to have this dog.


The dad bonded with that dog and his lap is where the dog spent most of his indoor time. The dad more than once exclaimed at how much of his life was missed by not having a dog. He just didn't know.


Someone said there is no place for horses in modern society. Well, if that's true, then there is no place for me either.


This thread is one of the most polite discussions of opposing and strongly felt opinions that I've seen anywhere on the net.
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