Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands - Page 47 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Public Land Use
Wild Horses and Burros 5 38.46%
Private Livestock 2 15.38%
Indigenous Native Species 9 69.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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post #461 of 685 Old 09-30-2019, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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^ The only thing I don't care for with livestock on public land are the fences. They stop the natural flow of wild species movement, which in turn causes the overuse in areas.

In one of the above YouTube videos it explains how the buffalo would wreak havoc on an area, but they would move on and not return for a long time, which allowed the area to recover.
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post #462 of 685 Old 09-30-2019, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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I'm so bummed. I wanted to contact Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D. Wow. He had been working with the BLM since 1971.

DR. JAY KIRKPATRICK (1940-2015)

With the death of Dr. Jay Kirkpatrick, we lost one of the leading advocates for humane wildlife population control. His research, development, production, and long-term use of immunocontraceptives in the field and in zoos to control reproduction benefited a wide range of animals, from horses on Assateague Island to elephants in South Africa. He demonstrated that one type of immunocontraceptive vaccine—porcine zona pellucida (PZP)—was highly effective, reversible, and safe for pregnant and nursing animals, while causing no serious side effects.

His dedication to the study of immunocontraceptives was triggered by a 1971 meeting with officials from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), who asked if he could prevent wild horses from reproducing.
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post #463 of 685 Old 09-30-2019, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMaple View Post
But the cattle on the range are not there all year, and are pulled when the range has been grazed. Horses graze it continually, even when it's already damaged.

That is only true sometimes. The ranch I was on five years had around 5,000 deeded acres with 28,000 acres total with about half State Trust Land and half BLM. The sections are all checker bordered. The deeded property is not fenced. Only the outside perimeter of the entire 28k is fenced. They did have a large annual holding area fenced when they had to have their own scales and sold only once or twice a year at their ranch. They now haul to auction only when the price is high. The ranch's lease in permanent full time all year without any removal.


During one drought the BLM attempted to reduce the aum's allowed but the State didn't care so there was 5k plus 11k that the BLM couldn't control so they had to walk away.


There's lots of very large checker-bordered ranches with half being deeded. Same deal. No control.



There are a lot of real old ranches that have year around grazing with no removal on BLM. The ranch I was on passed the centennial while I was there. And there are more in the general area.


I understood the article to be measuring AUM's to AUM's. Animal Unit Month for those that don't know.


So if a cow/calf was there for 6 months, they'd be counted as 6 AUMs. Now I read one article that said a horse was one AUM but if memory serves me it's either 1.25 or 1.5 AUMs. So 12 months with a horse at 1.25 would be 15 AUMs.


But no matter how it's sliced, you know as well as I and probably better that the cattle on the range absolutely drafts the WHB on the range. You know it I know it.


Sure, there are examples. But if we are going to use examples, lets talk about a depleted range where 50% of the natural vegetation has been destroyed by over grazing where there has never been a wild horse present since the USA was formed.


As long as we're comparing cattle and horses, lets talk about springs. Horses like nice clean water just like we do. Cows, (i love'm i even bonded heavily with one that put her owner in the hospital but that's another story), don't care. You know what they do to watering holes. They walk around in them and poop all over IN them. Horses if they can will walk away from their food trough to poop and definitely do NOT poop in the water.


I've stopped in a dry sandy wash and dug a hole for water for Hondo with a spring nearby that he would not touch because of it being fouled by cattle.


Hey, I don't have a dog in this race really except when the Mustangs (feral raised horses) are getting ran over and into the ground.


There's a lot I do not know. I only have Bachelor's degree from my five years of concentrated full time experiences on the ranch. No Masters or PHD but yep, I've been a few places and know a few things.


If there is anything you think you can contradict from anything I've said in this post, I'd like to hear it. Really. My entire life has been about learning. Still is.
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post #464 of 685 Old 10-01-2019, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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"Natural selection and the environment have produced small tough horses with some unique characteristics, and from a behavioral standpoint, wild horses have a complex social organization and structure." - Jay Kirkpatrick, Ph.D. (1940-2015)

Video 2001: "El Caballo: The Wild Horses of North America" (2001) - Short Version

It would be great if we could find a well-funded research team that wanted to complete an extensive in-depth study on America's wild horses that would include DNA, GPS tracking, behavioral, social, and compensatory reproduction.

The study could include both horses in the wild and the thousands currently in holding facilities like pens and pastures. And, hopefully, the research study team would provide proper healthcare, diet, and grooming to these horses.
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post #465 of 685 Old 10-01-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WildAbtHorses View Post
^ The only thing I don't care for with livestock on public land are the fences. They stop the natural flow of wild species movement, which in turn causes the overuse in areas.







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post #466 of 685 Old 10-01-2019, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Adopt a Horse has been a Fascinating Lesson in Biology
by Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D. Wildlife Biologist

"As you reduce the density of ungulates, reproduction becomes more efficient. Animals breed at a younger age, and they bred more often, and the survival of the younger is great than it was before. As we gather these horses and then gather all the young, it is like throwing an on-switch for those mares that we turn back on the range. They are now going to come into estrus, and they are going to bred and bred successfully. And 'Adopt a Horses' has done nothing else except cost the taxpayers an immense amount of money and has proven the textbooks right there is compensatory reproduction, and as you reduce the density, the reproduction speeds up."

24:18 - 25:05 //youtu.be/m9jeqU-xPFQ

El Caballo = horse.
ungulate = a hoofed mammal.

Last edited by WildAbtHorses; 10-01-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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post #467 of 685 Old 10-01-2019, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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The Wild Horse Dilemma: Conflicts and Controversies of the Atlantic Coast Herds
By Bonnie U. Gruenberg – January 6, 2015

“America’s mustangs have suffered greatly at our hands.” p.64.

“Government agencies in general, however, have a long history of using deception, betrayal, and shaky science to advance their objectives, and they have not always acted in the best interest of the mustangs.” p.64.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vf...logist&f=false
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post #468 of 685 Old 10-01-2019, 10:20 PM
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I watched the movie twice, haven't looked at the book yet. Busy at the new place.


I did want to mention though a concept about wild vs domesticatable. Wolves are for the most part not domesticatable. Zebras are not for the most part domesticatable. In fact most animals fall into that category.


The ones that can be domesticated have been. I have read that it is the non domesticateable that are truly wild. A feral horse acts wild because he is fearful, but they can be gentled because of who they are. Not so with many animals. Most can be handled when they are babies but when they turn adult, they turn wild. Those are the truly wild animals.


There are exceptions of course, but I'm talking generally. I think about that when people speak of 'wild' horses.


There are some theories that horses came to us before we came to them. Some think perhaps because there were fewer large predators hanging around human camps. In any case, some that study in that area do believe they came to us rather than the other way around. I'm talking about the initial contact in the beginning of course. After the discovery they were so willing, we went after them.


Then perhaps, (im speculating), someone tamed a baby and it didn't turn wild and the interaction began.


Some say humans would not have survived to this day without the dog in the beginning. Could it be the same for the horse? If so, we owe them.
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post #469 of 685 Old 10-02-2019, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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^Congrats on your recent move into your new place! From what I've read and watched horses are naturally curious, so it makes sense they would approach. They have good instincts? They can read faces?

Good point on wild animals vs. feral domesticable ones.

Here is another book:
Into the Wind: Wild Horses of North America
by Jay F. Kirkpatrick (Author), Michael H. Francis (Photographer) 1994.

The text for this book is not on Google Books:
https://books.google.com/books/about...d=RQ5JAAAAYAAJ

A celebration of the wild horse that looks at their origin and natural history. The author has worked closely with wild horse herds all across America and has documented the struggle of the wild horse to survive and thrive in our ever-advancing civilization.
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post #470 of 685 Old 10-02-2019, 03:57 PM
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The most important animal to be tamed was the cat. Without them early man could not store grain. They slowed down the rats. Dogs were tamed to help pull small carts before horses. Later for protection and food. Horses were hunted for food long before they were tamed.
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