Working horses correctly, opinions. - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 11:39 AM
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The horse is low in front of you but as he's a Gypsy/Traditional cob its possible that he's been driven before he was ridden so has developed that habit and muscle memory.
If you want to do dressage or showing classes with him then he has to know how to work in contact - he looks the right type for Traditional cob and CHAPS showing classes so worth the effort. You don't want him working in a fixed headset if you want to show him as the Ride Judge will pick up on it immediately

You want him to learn to accept and seek the contact - a good way to know that's happening is to do a lot of 'free walk' exercises. As you lengthen the reins without dropping the contact he should lower his head and reach down to the bit.
Try to adopt the philosophy that your hands are going to tell him where the boundary line is - where you want him to place his head and then just maintain a light consistent contact to keep it there.
If he's sucking back behind the bit - as he is in a couple of those photos - he's dropping the contact. If you keep pulling then he'll just get even more behind it. Thats when you need to lengthen your reins but ride him forwards into your hands as you do it

Don't get fooled into thinking that energy = speed = impulsion. You'll just end up with a horse thats running round, totally flat and on the forehand.
Use your half halts to bring him back and keep him 'together' as you ask him to go forwards. That will result in him lifting his front end up and getting his hind end underneath him
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 11:39 AM
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I didn't read all of the replies, yet...


Your horse is still behind the vertical in every picture.
And working to evade the bit is more what I think I see...
I also see what appears to be a iron grip on the reins with a set arm and little give or forgiveness and you see what your picture depicts.
Your first picture presented to me is where the horse was still trying to be soft and accommodating, then when his compliance was met with no give he hardened against the pressure.
Your horse complied, but not sure was happy being ridden by said rider...

So, back to part of your question...
Behind the bit and on the vertical are different things.
bsms shared excerpts.
I'll share an entire link so you can read, see the illustrations and actual pictures in sequence so a better understanding of how although different these also work in tandem in communication or difficulty of..
I don't think bsms and mine come from the same resource...

::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - Behind the Vertical Explained :::
Hope that helped to clarify what you have, what you want to work toward and what it should look like from a skeletal aspect and as a picture you view.
...
jmo...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
A horse can be comfortable, relaxed, enthusiastic and healthy without ever going "on the bit". "Accepting contact" can run the gamut from "seeking contact" to "submitting to contact". To work the horse correctly, IMHO, one would ride in a way that encourages the horse to WANT contact - to SEEK instead of merely SUBMIT. At the seeking stage, I would expect the horse's nose to be well in front of the vertical. It looks to me like the rider is requiring the horse to submit to a frame, not to seek contact as helpful.

The horse is not "rounding". Honestly, horses do not round up in the back. This diagram shows what they can do:



That is the outcome of this fact:



What is often called "round" is a result of the horse tucking under at the pelvis and lifting at the withers. The horse in the pictures shows no hint of either. It looks to me like the rider is wrestling with rather than properly riding the horse, requiring an artificial frame in a way likely to cause resentment instead of willing cooperation.


There is an old book called "Common Sense Horsemanship". It is focused on jumping and you might not be interested in what it says about position. However, he argues for three levels of "control". His first stage includes a lot of work on slack reins while horse and rider learn to move together without relying on reins. His second level teaches soft, sustained contact. He considered that the level most riders should use. The Advanced stage was only for experienced riders. It included how to put the horse on the bit and teach the horse and rider dressage type of movement. The book has detailed chapters on how to teach each level - and the prerequisites for each.

That seems like a reasonable progression for both horse and rider. Trying to get a horse to go "on the bit" and "round up" without first building a solid foundation at the first two levels seems counterproductive. "High School" riding should only come after success at the lower schools. Otherwise it is like dropping a pupil into high school without having them go thru elementary and Jr High first.
Thanks this is very helpful
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 12:23 PM
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I think it's a mixed bag. the first two photos show a horse moving along in nice contact with a bit, and for a heavy horse, working reasonably upright. the other photos show the horse diving down more.


Really, a video is more useful.




This kind of heavy horse is much harder to get light in front. Don't be discouraged, I think the photos show a lot of potential.
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 12:40 PM
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When we look at the title “working horses correctly” the very last thing we should consider is the head...

It took a lot of practical experience to actually ‘get’ that, my last horse had been ridden in draw reins, so was very keen to duck behind the vertical, so I learned that the answer to most everything was “add leg” and get her working from behind. Only when the body is working properly can we start to consider the technicalities of head set.

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 01:16 PM
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This thread is very interesting reading.

@bsms it's so cool to see the culmination of all of your learning and research. Your posts make so much more sense to me now than they used to, I'm really enjoying reading them. Perhaps you should start a class on riding theory or something?
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I think it's a mixed bag. the first two photos show a horse moving along in nice contact with a bit, and for a heavy horse, working reasonably upright. the other photos show the horse diving down more.


Really, a video is more useful.




This kind of heavy horse is much harder to get light in front. Don't be discouraged, I think the photos show a lot of potential.
Thank you so much, I’m trying so hard with her. She was a rescue and I’d love to do some intro shows with her, she’s such a sweetie. After posting this thread I understand a lot more that I need to get hindquarters working a lot more than they already are, I love to hear people’s opinions ! :P
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Last edited by tinyliny; 10-24-2018 at 05:41 PM.
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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No need to be sorry haha, I'm here for the feedback and here to help improve my mares way of going! :)
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
The horse is low in front of you but as he's a Gypsy/Traditional cob its possible that he's been driven before he was ridden so has developed that habit and muscle memory.
If you want to do dressage or showing classes with him then he has to know how to work in contact - he looks the right type for Traditional cob and CHAPS showing classes so worth the effort. You don't want him working in a fixed headset if you want to show him as the Ride Judge will pick up on it immediately

You want him to learn to accept and seek the contact - a good way to know that's happening is to do a lot of 'free walk' exercises. As you lengthen the reins without dropping the contact he should lower his head and reach down to the bit.
Try to adopt the philosophy that your hands are going to tell him where the boundary line is - where you want him to place his head and then just maintain a light consistent contact to keep it there.
If he's sucking back behind the bit - as he is in a couple of those photos - he's dropping the contact. If you keep pulling then he'll just get even more behind it. Thats when you need to lengthen your reins but ride him forwards into your hands as you do it

Don't get fooled into thinking that energy = speed = impulsion. You'll just end up with a horse thats running round, totally flat and on the forehand.
Use your half halts to bring him back and keep him 'together' as you ask him to go forwards. That will result in him lifting his front end up and getting his hind end underneath him
Yes she has been driven a little in the past, she was also a rescue. And thank you so much for the reply, useful info
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-24-2018, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecolorcoal View Post
Poll too low. "contact," yes, but not "on the bit/working the bit." They are not engaged. The circle of energy is still bleeding out the front.


Shorter reins. half halt, get his front end up!
Great thanks!
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