Clinton Anderson - Page 28 - The Horse Forum
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post #271 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel Reiter View Post
Please share your list.
I think the most important thing for new riders/horse owners is to begin to understand who a horse is rather than ABC's of any particular method.

For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodimia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.

Neither are training manuals for the horse. I'd say more manuals for the new rider/owner. Once the new owner gets their head and heart in the correct place, I think they are ready to make their own choice about ABC.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #272 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 05:46 PM
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I was terrified to ride him after the first time he spooked on the trail, wheeling 90 degrees while talking off at a dead run and leaving me limping after him on the ground.
This happend to me three times during the first year, except they were 180 degree bolts. There were others where I stayed on. I was very very close to throwing in the towel.

I posted a thread named Spook, spin, bolt, stop, look; or similar. Got lots of advice. Some I took and some I did not.

I did no training to Hondo. He has certainly never been in a round pen with me.

The only changes made were to myself, my attention to Hondo and the surroundings, and more than my attention, my attentiveness. I just began being mentally with him more and more.

Sure, he's still a horse with inborn reactions to staying alive, but when I look back at that first year, which was not that long ago, wow what a difference. He did a spook squat not long ago and I noticed him stretching his neck and head to see if it was going to come after him. Before he'd have been 100 feet away before he looked to see what it was.

If he is scared about something, he becomes very frustrated if his fear is not acknowledged. "What? Are you totally blind? No sense of smell? Deaf? Are you still breathing? Hello?

If I tried some of CA's stuff on Hondo he'd look at me and say, Are you serious? Hahahaha. Hondo knows me way too well.

But when I'm ready to go, he literally helps me put the bridle on. Sticks his nose right into it. He did not always do that.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #273 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post

For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodamia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.
I have never heard of Willis J. Powell except from you. That book was written before 1923!

Rashid is one of my favorites and I have three of his books but when I watched him live in Saint Paul he seemed to me to be a very slow, very patient, very gentle version of Clinton Anderson. Absolutely nothing different in the way the two did things except for the patience of Mark Rashid. Stacy Westfall is another trainer who is more patient and gentle than Clinton. Craig Cameron was the roughest trainer I've watched.

You don't have to be in a hurry to use Clinton's techniques. I cringe every time I watch him shake a lead and bump a horse under the chin with a snap. None of my lead ropes have any metal on them. Slower works, it's just slower.
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post #274 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I think the most important thing for new riders/horse owners is to begin to understand who a horse is rather than ABC's of any particular method.

For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodimia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.

Neither are training manuals for the horse. I'd say more manuals for the new rider/owner. Once the new owner gets their head and heart in the correct place, I think they are ready to make their own choice about ABC.
Rashid is the idoit that termed all curbs with a broken mouth piece as a Tom Thumb, and then gave an expose of complete garbage!
He should have stuck to martial arts!
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post #275 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 06:36 PM
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I just can't pass this up. At the risk of exposing myself to some as a complete nincompoop, yes, absolutely, if Hondo told me emphatically, "Harold, if we finish crossing this stream we're are going to die".

Then I'd talk to him about it and try to lead from the ground. If that failed, we'd go back to the other side and talk about it for a while.

We would eventually cross, unless a mountain lion appeared. Then I'd try to get mounted before we ran like hades.

This approach happens to work for Hondo and I and he just keeps getting braver and braver.
Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
or not at all!
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post #276 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel Reiter View Post
Please share your list.
I've been doing that. But I've just ordered a book by Tom Dorrance. It seems he might talk principles more than specific techniques, and I fault CA for not discussing principles. I've discussed principles more than specifics, but I've also given examples.

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Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
...In fact, BSMS how can you in the same breath, proclaim the importance of getting into a horse;s mind, not depend on body control, yet advocate going to a curb for control-you don't see the paradox????...
None at all. I already wrote (post 266):

"A horse obviously needs to learn a few cues - turn left, turn right, slow down & stop - before heading out on a trail. Those cues can be simple. The rider may need to be ready to use them forcefully on the trail."

As I have explained to you multiple times before, Mia COULD be stopped from bolting if you 'took her head away' - to use a CA-like phrase and approach. Then we would do a 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, and so on ad nauseum...and it MIGHT well take "3-5 minutes" - to QUOTE Clinton Anderson - to stop her from being reactive.

And by that time, she KNEW the scary thing was UTTERLY TERRIFYING. Blast it, Smilie, that is the point! What Clinton Anderson said to do failed! NOT WITH EVERY HORSE. I've said repeatedly on this thread that he performs a useful role and that his method works with some horses.

Since it was not possible to stop her in her tracks with a snaffle, and since "taking her head away" was possible but not productive, I tried something else. We went back to the very beginning, and I taught her to stop in a straight line with a curb. It took 3 sessions of 45 minutes in an arena. Then we tried it in the desert. And when she became afraid of a motorcycle, and started to run, it took one firm bump to stop her - in a straight line. Then she paused, and the motorcycle went away. And the light came on, and she began to realize that if she stopped, the scary thing ran away from her! At that point, having already dug a very deep hole, we began to climb out.

Clinton Anderson's method, contrary to his boasts, does NOT work with every rider and every horse. As someone who started at 50, I suspect I understand how a 40 or 50 year old beginner feels - and they do NOT feel like handling lots of explosions. So if they have a horse who CA's method works with - great! I'm happy they found something that works!

However, I found something that also works. Slower, but it works with a lot less potential for explosions and injuries - and it works well with nervous or independent horses. I suspect it would work with Titan too, although I obviously will never know.

It works for trail horses. I know nothing about arena sports and have said so repeatedly on this thread.
@Smilie : "taking the head away, re directing the horse , to do some familiar movements, is not punishment, done correctly"

Some horses disagree. Even when leading them, I've noticed both Mia and Bandit become very reactive if I try to turn them in circles, but calm if I back them in a straight line. I don't know why. But it is true. From the ground, I could provoke fear and a fight by demanding they move their feet in circles, but get a lowered head and licking if I backed them up in a straight line.

@Hondo : "At the risk of exposing myself to some as a complete nincompoop, yes, absolutely, if Hondo told me emphatically, "Harold, if we finish crossing this stream we're are going to die"."

I tend to agree, but I also think a horse who has accepted responsibility for doing X will try much harder to do X than one who has been ordered to do X. I find Bandit is a braver horse if I ask him if he can do X and he says yes. It makes a huge difference in attitude when Bandit and I are working as a team to achieve X, versus when rider bsms tells Bandit to do X.

Charlotte Dujardin is one of the few dressage riders I enjoy watching. I think she has managed to form a genuine team with Valegro. Valegro is one of the few dressage horses I've seen who seems to enjoy playing the game - who looks like he is having fun.

"I can't help but smile when I ride Valegro; I think something and he does it. I laugh and I think 'god how does he know, I didn't even ask, I just thought it.'"

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/87915c0dd77642ca8a98d8dd7ce65e39/britains-defending-dressage-champion-all-smiles-rio

I have no idea how someone can do that in an arena sport, but Charlotte Dujardin seems to have done it. I sure could not. But I can do it, or at least am starting to do it, on a trail. And I feel much safer when I feel Bandit take responsibility for X. There will be no explosion. He will do his best. If we need to flex, he'll listen. I think that was what @jaydee was describing with jumpers - the ability to trust your horse when you need HIM to get YOU out of trouble. It cannot be forced. It is trust and teamwork.

@Reiningcatsanddogs wrote, "I can be tough with a horse and spent a good chunk of my life doing just that. Maybe it is a sign of getting older and softer, perhaps a bit of experience in that I no longer find that necessary in dealing with horses to get the results I want because I recognize a problem long before it becomes one..."

I think a lot of older beginners - certainly me at 58 - know their body no longer has the strength and recovery ability to get away with muscling a horse around. I suspect a lot of older beginners would respond well to learning how to THINK their way around problems, and how to learn to read their horse (and encourage the horse to talk) so they could avoid explosions instead of riding right into one.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #277 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
I've been doing that. But I've just ordered a book by Tom Dorrance. It seems he might talk principles more than specific techniques, and I fault CA for not discussing principles.
I guess it depends on what you mean by principles. If you mean those esoteric quotes that Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman are all known for, yeah Clinton Anderson doesn't do that.

Quote:
Horses don't do wrong things - horses are never wrong. ~ Ray Hunt
Perfect example of the kind of thing you probably won't ever here Clinton Anderson say. I can't imagine him doing a show with a lady bringing her horse that bucks and rears and saying "Horses don't do wrong things, they are never wrong, mate."

I really like that quote, I'm not making fun of it by the way.
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post #278 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jgnmoose View Post
Horses don't do wrong things - horses are never wrong. ~ Ray Hunt
I really like that quote, I'm not making fun of it by the way.
Would Ray Hunt say that at a clinic?

I'm wondering why you like the quote and what you think Ray Hunt was really getting at.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #279 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 10:22 PM
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Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
or not at all!
Oh, I see. Did not understand the details of the situation.

In that case I'd say, Ok buddy, let's go back to the side we came from where it's safer.

After we rested and discussed the situation, we'd go look for a less hazardous crossing. Man'd me fool to continue a crossing as I'm visualizing.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #280 of 394 Old 09-19-2016, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
or not at all!
Oh, I see. Did not understand the details of the situation.

In that case I'd say, Ok buddy, let's go back to the side we came from where it's safer.

After we rested and discussed the situation, we'd go look for a less hazardous crossing. Man'd me fool to continue a crossing as I'm visualizing.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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