Clinton Anderson - Page 33 - The Horse Forum
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post #321 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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In the dvds of CA, I think he shows more "feel" than in some of the t v programs. Maybe because he can have more time?
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If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort, you will not get either comfort or truth; only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair. -C.S. Lewis
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post #322 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 04:38 PM
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Just read a little of Ray Hunt's book "Think Harmony with Horses". I can see where someone who is overhorsed and needs help NOW would find it useless. But I can also see how some beginners might do well to start with Clinton Anderson, and then move on to Ray Hunt. I like his emphasis on the horse's mind - similar to Harry Whitney, and in many ways in line with what Mia & Bandit have been teaching me.

I also like his heavy emphasis on rewarding the smallest try.

"It isn't the big thing you do. It is the little things that make the big difference. Remember to LET him find it; you don't make him find it. Settle for the smallest change and the slightest try; first thing you know it will become meaningful to him."

That would have been meaningless when I was struggling darn near to stay alive on Mia! To be honest, during the first few years, I don't think I'd have been ready or able to understand what was meant or why it was important. I needed HELP, and that would have been too "zen" for me! The same was true of Harry Whitney. The first time I read his comment about 'a mind between two reins', I poo-poohed it! Way too touchy-feelly, zen, esoteric...you name it. It took a lot longer for me to see how Harry Whitney's comment applied to Mia, or even what it meant!

But I can also see how Ray Hunt might apply to Bandit and I, now, which is very different from Mia and I a few years back! It makes me wish I could teleport back in time, and ride Mia THEN with what I have learned SINCE - and learned, in part, BECAUSE I rode Mia for those years! Wouldn't it be nice if we could just erase any mistakes we made learning, and do over?

Poor Mia! She deserved better than me!
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #323 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 04:45 PM
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@bsms

What happened to "The Horse Is Never Wrong?".

Once we were coming home late when I was about 10. My dad dropped me off at the property entrance to drive the milk cows in while he went on to the house and got the machines and stuff ready.

I had stomach issues in those days and had a terrible stomach ache. He thought I was goldbricking. It was terribly painful but I made it.

I don't think a stomach ache would cause a problem with the barrels. And I don't know your horse. I do know if that happened with Hondo at some point I would have dismounted, did some scratching in some favorite places, and asked, "What's wrong buddy?"

I can tell you are tender, gentle, and caring toward your horses as am I. But as you, I am a predator with all the inborn inclinations. And I have done as you did, but not in the last year that I immediately recall.

And each time I did, it took a bit of time to regain the place that I had been. Happily, Hondo is very forgiving and knows my better side well.

Since you got so much support for your reactions, I just felt compelled to offer another side which I hope you will tolerate well.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #324 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
But I can also see how some beginners might do well to start with Clinton Anderson, and then move on to Ray Hunt.
If I'd started on Hondo with the little I've seen of CA, I likely would not be cluttering up this thread. I'd have given up. Hondo was a throw away horse too dangerous to ride above a walk.

Rimmey was close behind. I would not have even been able to catch Rimmey after a day or two. Now I can walk up to him anytime in the field, halter him, pick up all four feet providing he hasn't already picked them up for me before I got there.

Many beginners, I think, have a problem because they think a horse is just a big dog. The beginners need a whole bunch of training about what a horse is and what a horse is not. But that does not translate that they need to start getting rough. They don't know enough to get rough without messing up the horse even worse.

The beginners need to be approached as patiently and worked with as slowly as the problem horse.

I had advanced age and declining testosterone on my side or it may have not went as well for me even without CA.

And I do unapologetically feel it has gone very very well. I made my tenth trip hauling salt uneventfully day before yesterday. I am so overwhelmed and so very very grateful to the horses for making that happen for me.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #325 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 05:17 PM
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"What happened to "The Horse Is Never Wrong?""

I don't think the horse is never wrong, just as I don't think I am never wrong. I'm not thrilled with today's ride, but Bandit has a very different personality than either Lilly or Mia. In some ways, I really like him. There is some toughness there and that isn't all bad. But either due to genetics or training, he'll sometimes tell me to go to heck...and that is wrong. I may deserve it sometimes, but certainly not always.

I believe in giving the horse freedom within boundaries. One of those boundaries, for me, is that the horse doesn't get to decide if we are going to do something today. I know he preferred to stay in our little arena and eat the grass that has sprung up due to recent rains.

But I believe in "mutually acceptable compromise", and standing next to him and letting him stuff his mouth for two hours wasn't an acceptable compromise to me! Ray Hunt might tell me I needed to let Bandit find the answer. I think the "answer" is sometimes "Just get your butt in gear and do it!"

If that makes me a fraud or hypocrite...so be it. But just as "We do not spin and run away" is a boundary, sometimes (usually!) "We keep going" is a boundary. I may flex some on the path we take, or the speed, but Bandit doesn't get to decide to turn around and go eat for a few hours. Not on my time. If that makes him ****y, then maybe he'll get ****ed on some too. On page one, Ray Hunt writes, "When you ask your horse to do something it should be his idea. This is the goal." That sounds nice, but MY goal was to go ride. Didn't have a choice to ride yesterday. Won't have time tomorrow. "So...yeah, we're riding, Bandit. And if it isn't your idea for today...oh well. We're using the Nike approach today, Bandit, not Ray Hunt's, so - Just Do It..."

Maybe my Inner CA was coming to the surface...
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post #326 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 05:40 PM
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@bsms

Well, what can I say, we are two different people, as most folks are. Different things grab our attention. Perhaps usually those we already agree with.

One of the first things I grabbed on to early on was to not go to a horse with a cut and dried plan for the day unless really going to work as in a cattle roundup. Even then, things can change. So much so that the person I was doing the round ups with always began the day by saying, "Ok Harold, what are we going to do today?" Things would often change that much.

Day before yesterday was the first time I hauled two horses in a trailer for 48 years except for the day before when I hauled Hondo and Rimmey around the field just to see how they acted.

I had to haul them 6.5 miles over a rough 4wd road all on private property in low range in the lowest gear for most of the trip which took 1:15.

I reconciled myself before I started that I might not even make it to the destination. I watched them in my rearview mirror. I stopped several times and talked to them. They just sort of seemed to say, "Wuts up Harold?"

As mentioned all went well.

There is no way to tell and this is just a very much newbie guessing but I'm wondering if your horse knew you were focused on I gotta do this and I gotta do this today and now. I have clearly seed Hondo and now even Rimmey pick up on that kind of approach from me.

Remember, they often times sense what is going on inside our heads that we are not aware of even though they may not understand the full or even correct meaning of it.

It really really could have been that when you saw the trash cans your subconscious or something said, crap! I'll bet he's gonna be shie of one on each side. Maybe not but that kind of attentiveness is one of the things you were recommending to me when I was having the spin bolt problem with Hondo.

It's hard to accept that the horse is never wrong because we have to decide we are wrong, and WE don't like to do that.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #327 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 07:06 PM
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Well, I have not watched as many videos of CA, as many here seem to have, so all I can say, if what he is doing, is counter to what you would do with a horse, then DON"T do it
As for Titan, I only watched the first two videos, but I did not see a confused horse.I saw a horse that was very relaxed, in between schooling, and you don't get that if a horse is confused/unsure
Far as the horse that flipped over, he was a horse that did not give to pressure, was dangerous for that owner, getting on, and one flip, because that horse refused to give, with the owner on the ground, sure as heck beats all those incidents with that horse doing what he did, when she tried to mount him!
You'll have to give me a link to the blind horse video. Myself, I don't see the point of riding a blind horse
I have ridden night blind horses, raising Appaloosas, and then being caught, un planned, riding at night. Sure, it can be done, with that horse relying on the rider for each and every footfall,BUT that removes allowing a horse to pick his own way, when you give him that option, and indeed, requires a horse that does listen 100% to you,
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post #328 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Which is what CA fails to see in horses. In multiple videos, such as the one where the horse flips over and with the blind horse - and I'm even sure with Titan too -, both horses were confused and he didn't see it; yet thinks the horse is just being disrespectful and lazy (yet a rider of 6 years like me can clearly see it >.>).
I can;t comment on the blind horse video, as I did not see it. I did watch the Titan videos, and although he uses that lateral flexion much more then I ever would, I do not see a confused horse, but rather a horse quite secure, in the relationship, relaxing in between training sessions. You don't get that with a confused or up tight horse
Perception varies, according to our own expectations, and interpretation of what we are seeing, Many recreational riders have really no idea what a truly soft horse is.
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post #329 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 07:25 PM
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Horses are very willing creatures, able to adapt to our demands, but , they are also beings that can, and will learn both negative things, as well as positive, not really doing so because they understand all the time what is 'right, and what is wrong, BUT as creatures of habit, they sure can, and will repeat both good behavior and 'bad; behavior even if the latter was accidentally rewarded
Horses will spook , both because they are truly afraid, have been shoved into their instinctive survival flight mode, and also because they have learned spooking can intimidate the rider, thus they don't have to go where they don't want to, or even be put away for the day.
It is the job of an experienced horseman to be able to tell the difference
Any horse will spook when something suddenly jumps out at them, and as long as they don't try to follow that spook up with trying to leave the country, buck, ect, I never react
However, if I have ridden a horse for awhile, truly earned his trust in my leadership, then if I really did my job, that horse will not spook at something I tell him is safe. He might look at it, but he will accept that I 'am looking out for the lions', so he does not have to. If you don't have that, you also don't have the relationship you think you have with your horse
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post #330 of 394 Old 09-21-2016, 08:28 PM
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The day that I conclude that at times, under certain circumstances, I must inflict physical pain upon Hondo in order to obtain the response I desire is the very same day that my quest for horsemanship will screech to a very immediate, abrupt, and permanent halt.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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