Ask-Tell-Demand - Page 11 - The Horse Forum
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post #101 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by loosie View Post
I hope then you never come across a truly 'dominant' type horse, because with that attitude, well, violence very often begets violence shall we say. Seems very incongruent with the rest of what you say too.

I find it quite interesting how definite & one eyed many people can be, and want to lecture people on with these sorts of matters, especially when theyve had little experience. The saying sure goes with me, that the more you learn, the more you realise you dont know.
Well, maybe I worded it wrong loosie. What I was getting at, or trying to, is that I do leave room for a demand under certain circumstances. But not with a cue, but that's me.

I was thinking about the one time I really got after a horse, and that was the lead horse Molly, when I was turning Hondo loose with the herd and from about 10 feet away she pointed her behind at Hondo and feigned a double barrel, while I was still at his head petting him. I had Hondo's halter and lead in my hand and I chased her and repeatedly threw it at her. We'le good friends now.

Now I was looking at a trailer at a horse rehab place once and there was an aggressive horse that they said to stay away from his fence, he would attack and bite. Well, needless to say I didn't jump in there and start attacking him or I would likely not be responding to what I view as almost an attack on me from you.

So does that sound a little better? If not I'll try again. I'm trying my best to use both eyes, such as they are.
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post #102 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 01:06 AM
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Im a bit lost on your reply harold. Not even 100% sure if we're taking about horses or people...


I suppose it was in saying 'the more you know...' That was meant to be a reminder that youre NOT omniscient, and the more you experience, the more you tend to realise that(if youre open minded & rational). So lecturing & judging & being disparaging to others with different views is not... the best approach IMHO.

Last edited by tinyliny; 06-22-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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post #103 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 03:23 AM
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Hondo, Your horse doesn't carry you "freely" - he's carrying you around because he has no choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post

I can promise that the day I become convinced that the quoted statement is true shall be the last day I shall ride any horse, including Hondo.

...

Now I realize you may not consider it possible that the horse is highly evolved enough to enjoy recreational pursuits that involve physical outputs. I, however, remain unconvinced that they do not.
Ok HondoÖwhat choice does he have? How would your horse tell you no? He can't dominate you, which is what saying no is. He can't kick, bite, barge, strike or swing his rear towards you as those are dominate behaviors that you yourself say you would treat aggressively and not allow. Nor should you allow it. He's an obedient well trained horse. If you want to ride, he won't object and that has nothing to do with his choice to be ridden or not. You are the dominate one, the one in charge, and as long as you are he won't go against your wishes. It's not his job to tell you what is going to happen or not happen that day. That's your job. Your choice, not his.

And, nowhere have I ever said horses don't "enjoy recreational pursuits that involve physical outputs". Horses are powerfully built for movement ie "physical output". My horses love a good trail ride and so do I, but I am the one who decides when, where and if we ride. Same as you.
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post #104 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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He can't kick, bite, barge, strike or swing his rear towards you as those are dominate behaviors
What if I had said Hondo 'willingly' carries me rather that using the term 'freely' carries me, would you challenge that also?

Do you believe if your horse could avoid carrying you by kicking, biting, barging, striking, and or swinging his rear towards you that your horse would do that? Assuming that he had the ability to at least gradually figure that out?

Edit: PS: I do not think any horse is naturally aggressive towards a human. When they are, I believe they have been taught to be that way, taught by humans, inadvertently of course.

Last edited by Hondo; 06-22-2017 at 07:40 AM.
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post #105 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 10:18 AM
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Just to be certain I am understanding you, it almost sounds like you are saying that she enjoyed responding to tiny cues so that you would not tell or demand. It sounds like she enjoyed responding to the tiny cues in order to avoid tell and demand.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Please excuse the personifying. Like I said, my horse obeyed without really thinking about it. My point was that I used ask-tell-demand to teach Prissy (a teen-aged dead-broke horse who knew her job) to go off of feather-light cues. I think if you could have asked her, she would have agreed that she would rather be cued with a tap on the neck rather than "normal" rein cues and voice commands rather than kick-to-go. Also remember that her "demand" cues would be considered "ask" cues by most horses. We got to that point by gradually lightening the ask cues. Ask-tell-demand gave the horse a choice.
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Last edited by tinyliny; 06-22-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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post #106 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 11:02 AM
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As for my horses though - if you've never seen a more dominate horse refuse to allow another horse under shelter...you haven't seen much horse behavior. I've argued for years that dominance in horses is NOT strictly linear, and involves more complexity than what many assume. I have been told, for example, that horses are constantly seeking to get above us in the pecking order, just as they constantly seek to get above each other - and that is bogus. The fact that Bandit is regularly chased away from food, yet can take charge any time he wants to, suggests a more complex scenario. The fact that he is ALWAYS #1 to eat horse pellets, but #3 of 3 for anything else, including shelter, suggests a more complex scenario.

But the idea that horses never dominate each other or use brute force to get their way is ludicrous. Some horses are bullies. Some are loners. Some are very dominate about one thing and can't care less about another. But yes - Bandit has too many bite marks on him for me to believe horses live in simple peace and harmony.

And yes, Bandit is usually the instigator. He's the one who tries to get the older horses to chase him. And sometimes they get irritated with him. Bandit also loses his temper at times - with other horses and with me.

I have never met a horse, anywhere, under any circumstance, that supported the idea that horses never dominate another, never use force, and never try to impose their will on another horse.

I remain convinced that one of the big things we can offer a horse is our own sense of fairness, and our own relatively non-judgmental acceptance of a horse. There are undoubtedly humans who abuse and intimidate horses, and who treat them both harshly and unfairly. But that has nothing to do with Ask - Tell - Demand.
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by tinyliny; 06-22-2017 at 01:20 PM.
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post #107 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
What if I had said Hondo 'willingly' carries me rather that using the term 'freely' carries me, would you challenge that also?

Do you believe if your horse could avoid carrying you by kicking, biting, barging, striking, and or swinging his rear towards you that your horse would do that? Assuming that he had the ability to at least gradually figure that out?

Edit: PS: I do not think any horse is naturally aggressive towards a human. When they are, I believe they have been taught to be that way, taught by humans, inadvertently of course.
Oh Harold, you need to work with more horses, and not make blanket statements! There certainly are aggressive horses, that have never been abused, or taught to be that way, other then they were never corrected/convinced that a human could not be dominated.
My horses 'willingly carry me, and yet have been introduced to the 'demand, at the correct time, and so that they is the happy un spoken agreement between us, that if they respond to the lightest 'ask', I will never go to the demand.
This does not cause a horse who is fearful, because of that un spoken agreement, but one who feels secure in clear and fair leadership, and one who is a joy to ride, responding to the lightest leg or rein aid , versus a horse that will ride , perform, as long as you never ask him to work out of his comfort zone, do something he rather would not.
Ambling along, grabbing grass here and there, is really not asking anything of ahorse, and if that is all you want, then go for it.
I want a horse to enjoy his job, but also not one when I put a light leg on him, ignors it, moves into it, if he does not wish to go in the direction asked.
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post #108 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 01:10 PM
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AND

This thread was devolving into personal spats, and that is just a shame , because the premise of the thread is really VERY interesting, and most of the posts have been thoughtful and thought provoking. As such, many posts had to be editted. I cannot PM each and every one of you who had an edit. if you want an explanation, you can PM me.

Please, folks, let's return to that frame of mind.
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Last edited by tinyliny; 06-22-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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post #109 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 02:09 PM
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Sorry< I only followed other posts where a name was used, by the person himself also, versus a user name. I will gladly edit/change that, but it is past the time allowed
I have no personal spat, and I think Hondo and I have agreed on enough points, where we also allow our individual comfort level to differ in some points
Just thought I would clarify, if the post was directed at me
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post #110 of 197 Old 06-22-2017, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
As for my horses though - if you've never seen a more dominate horse refuse to allow another horse under shelter...you haven't seen much horse behavior. I've argued for years that dominance in horses is NOT strictly linear, and involves more complexity than what many assume. I have been told, for example, that horses are constantly seeking to get above us in the pecking order, just as they constantly seek to get above each other - and that is bogus. The fact that Bandit is regularly chased away from food, yet can take charge any time he wants to, suggests a more complex scenario. The fact that he is ALWAYS #1 to eat horse pellets, but #3 of 3 for anything else, including shelter, suggests a more complex scenario.

But the idea that horses never dominate each other or use brute force to get their way is ludicrous. Some horses are bullies. Some are loners. Some are very dominate about one thing and can't care less about another. But yes - Bandit has too many bite marks on him for me to believe horses live in simple peace and harmony.

And yes, Bandit is usually the instigator. He's the one who tries to get the older horses to chase him. And sometimes they get irritated with him. Bandit also loses his temper at times - with other horses and with me.

I have never met a horse, anywhere, under any circumstance, that supported the idea that horses never dominate another, never use force, and never try to impose their will on another horse.

I remain convinced that one of the big things we can offer a horse is our own sense of fairness, and our own relatively non-judgmental acceptance of a horse. There are undoubtedly humans who abuse and intimidate horses, and who treat them both harshly and unfairly. But that has nothing to do with Ask - Tell - Demand.
Well, I actually agree with much if not most of what you have just said. I forget exactly the context, but you were saying that every morning when you went out and saw the bite marks that was enough to convince you of something or another. Seeing bite marks every morning is not normal in my view and should not be used to conclude anything other than that there is a problem somewhere.

I am sooo much about the complexity of horse's social interactions. Hondo appears to absolutely detest Dragon. I've come up with various reason, Hond really is very jealous and Dragon is all over people but I think there is more to it. I have finally just thrown up my hands and decided to trust Hondo that he knows more about what's going on than I do and may be justified. He pins his ears and sometimes bares his teeth but does not bite, and least doesn't leave marks.

One thing I would question is that we have fairness to offer above what can be found in the herd, if that is what you said and meant.

I do believe those relationships are there in the herd and believe I have observed them.

Just to be certain, it is obvious to me that some horses do use brute force to get their way. But even though I fully understand and appreciate that fact, I would not go so far as to label someone as ludicrous if they happened to not be aware of that fact and said otherwise. That's being unfriendly IMO. There are more friendly and productive ways to enlighten others.

As far as horses being a loner, if you're talking about one grazing near but off from the herd a little, yes, but if you're talking about a loner in the wild, I respectfully but completely disagree. As you've heard, a lone horse is a dead horse.

I'll also mention that I do not accept the idea that horses are constantly testing the pecking order. Everyone that has made serious studies of wild herds conclude the social structure is very stable with only some testing going on, but certainly not all the time by all members. Rimmey is slightly dominant over Hondo and I've never seen Hondo test him other that, hey buddy, you're pushing a little hard there, to which Rimmey always backs off. They are very good friends.

I'm really puzzled about some of the behavior you report your horses engage in and really do think it is a huge mistake to extrapolate those behavior to horses in general.
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