Btv and running - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 32 Old 04-15-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiana Winkler View Post
thank you all for your suggestions!
Diva (the horse we are talking about) is a 3 day event horse, meaning we do 3 stages (dressage, cross country, show jumping). Show jumping is the only phase that allows bitless in Canada, and sadly takes place outdoors.
I was able to jump her bitless in her unfit/coming off lameness state, but as soon as I started doing set work she became way too hot and ignorant for the hackamore (stubben steeltek hackamore)
Yes, I'm aware of rules that insist on bits for comps(one rule I think is unfair), which is *one* reason I'd avoid comps for now. But I wonder, if there's nerve damage, can you be absolved of that rule if you have a vet report advising no bit?? Regardless, you've got to get her going well generally, before you can even see if she will go well in a bit, if she's obviously worried about the pain it's causing.

As for that 'hackamore', I'd start her in a *real* hack, a rope bridle or other bitless, but I would not recommend a mechanical leverage device like that stubben one generally. And yes, it sounds like this horse is rather 'ignorant' - or at the end of her tether from ignorant riders(not assuming nec. all you). The horse obviously need far better training, not just to be put in a bitless & Bob's your Uncle. It will take proper training & preparation to get up to the stage of jumping without getting 'hot' & out of control, regardless what equipment.

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raised to tongue pressure is only applied when she leans)
Horses only 'lean' when a rider gives them something to lean on.

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and go cross country in a medium shank pelham
I thought you said she couldn't be ridden outside?

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Diva sees the chiropractor around monthly,
What body issues does she have, to necessitate that? That's another reason why I wouldn't be showjumping her, or other 'high impact' stuff, for now at least.

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I recently tried the loose rein circle method but we ended up spinning on a ~8m circle for 5 minutes, no relaxation or slowing.
Maybe have the totally wrong idea, but sounds like you only tried this once? And you didn't actually ask the horse to slow, let it trot? And you gave up after only 5 minutes?

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high quality hay, 1 scoop of high protein/fat/fibre (life line carb care) ark synergy, ark strategy, flax, hemp oil, electrolytes, and G’s formula.
Haven't looked up all those things to see what they all are, but why does she need all those things?

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ridden 7 days a week: 1 jump lesson, 1 set work, 1 dressage lesson and 2-3 dressage schools (one normally is a walk/trot hack)
Sounds full on. Sounds like you are putting the 'cart before the horse' big time, with your ambitions for her. And the very last word above - I thought 'hack' was the English term for trail riding - again, thought you said she was no good outside?
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #12 of 32 Old 04-15-2019, 04:27 AM
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A horse that has become use to a constant pull will be looking for this when given a loose rein and, be more likely to go up a pace. As the first video says.

It isn't easy to do but you must be willing to NOT take a hold. Let the horse walk on a loose rein, if it breaks into a trot, guide onto a small circle, continue walking on a loose rein. Ditto with each pace.

You guide with an open rein not pullin back.

I would like a £ for every horse I had ridden like this!

Certainly, as things are, you do not sound ready for an event yet.
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post #13 of 32 Old 04-15-2019, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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not 100% sure how to quote things my bad

She can do jumping phases outdoors with decent focus with an occasional ‘tantrum’ as we call it (backing up and not going forward, it can be fixed with a simple pat and an urge forwards) but she will be strong, hence the extreme bitting.

Diva is actually a hard keeper despite being a kwpn. Especially she’s on a pretty standard thoroughbred event horse diet.

I’ve tried riding her in a rope halter and the micklem bridles bitless option but it was no good even indoors.
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post #14 of 32 Old 04-15-2019, 10:44 AM
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The problem is not with the horse’s head, it is with the rear end. She is, more than likely, dumping on her forehand, and that causes Beverly, and rushing. Work LOTS of spirals to strengthen that hindquarters that will fix both “problems”.

I don't break horses, I FIX them!
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post #15 of 32 Old 04-15-2019, 12:32 PM
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loosie - there is no way to get out of using a bit in classes where the bit is a 'must'




The Stubben version of the English hackamore is a really nice mild hackamore - probably easier on the horse than using a bosal because the nose area is well padded. The shanks are very short so no leverage and that makes then suited for direct reining - unlike the bosal.
They aren't very strong though so for a horse that's already found it can pull and get away the German Hackamore is a better option.
We had an ex-racehorse that was unstoppable around jumps in any bit but was easy to hold in a German Hack. and was exercised around the roads in an English hack.
OP - The Pelham bit you're using at present is going to encourage him to get btv in response to the action of the bit so not a good idea.
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post #16 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
loosie - OP - The Pelham bit you're using at present is going to encourage him to get btv in response to the action of the bit so not a good idea.
What would you use then? Ive tried my elevator but that was no good. The pelham was the only thing ive had a respectable reaction to thus far. Two reins is ok.
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post #17 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiana Winkler View Post
She can do jumping phases outdoors with decent focus with an occasional ‘tantrum’ ... but she will be strong, hence the extreme bitting.
Yes, as said, cart way before the horse...

Quote:
Diva is actually a hard keeper despite being a kwpn. Especially she’s on a pretty standard thoroughbred event horse diet.
Dunno what kwpn is but if she's a 'hard keeper', IME it's likely she has ulcers or other gut probs. And a 'standard TB event horse diet' is likely to be one cause of that.

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I’ve tried riding her in a rope halter and the micklem bridles bitless option but it was no good even indoors.
Yes, as said, you need to TRAIN the horse, not just 'try' riding her in different equipment. Thats not likely to work regardless what the gear you use, if you dont' change HOW YOU ride & how she's trained.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #18 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 08:00 AM
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I do Agee that ulcers might well be a problem, a hyper horse that seems to be living off their nerves, not holding weight all,adds up.

The other thing is that the rider is quite willing to bit up rather than look at the cause of the fizziness.

You need to go back to the very basics. Learn how to get the horse relaxed and most importantly of all, learn how to be relaxed yourself when riding her.
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post #19 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 08:49 AM
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You need to spend concentrated time and effort doing slow work. Nothing but long rein walks for a while(not necessarily loose), get her think relaxed, down and forward. Art2ride introduces those concepts, but I'd advise against drinking their koolaid. You want forward, down, and out so that she can carry her own balance and when you bring her up, she doesnt need to balance on you. You need to be on top of any moment she goes btv, half halting, getting her back in balance, pushing that nose back out. It's not a matter of working without contact, it's reeducating her on her relationship with contact.

What has the vet said about the nerve damage to the tongue? Is it painful or deadened?

Are you working with a dressage trainer, or is it an eventing trainer who has to teach you dressage? How does she do in her dressage phase, has she done any pure dressage classes? There is a tenancy among event riders where they only do dressage because it's mandates, not because of the tools and skills it teaches.

Why 7 days a week? Even top level horses get a day off. Their body needs recovery time. I'm wondering if you have her too fit and it's working against you. Yes, you need a fit horse to event at prelim. It's much harder to teach relaxation and rhythm if they are constantly against the muscle. Tired is good for that. Also consider that while she may je fir, she might not be strong enough. Btv and rushing are common when the horse isn't strong enough to carry themselves in balance.

I took a look through your IG, the editing doesn't allow the best visual, but she appears to be over tempo most of the time. She's not through. Her dressage work is rushed and short, even when jumping she consistantly gets in too close. It's not much, just a step or so, and she's athletic enough to make it happen. She needs more 'wait' to the fences. Are you able to halt before fences if you wanted to? Approach, halt 3-4 strides out until they wait, then once they start to anticipate the halt, take the fence. She'll probably give a more impressive jump. The poles before and after is good too, but when they are quick on their feet, they can still take it through.

Have you tried bits other than adding leverage? A Waterford is an option, also something like a kinton if she responded well to the hack. Those aren't legal in all phases. I'd prefer to use them as training tools then return to more conventional tack. FWIW, I wouldn't bother with something like a rope halter.
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post #20 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiana Winkler View Post
What would you use then? Ive tried my elevator but that was no good. The pelham was the only thing ive had a respectable reaction to thus far. Two reins is ok.
If the horse is showing some respect for the Pelham you might be better off using a connector rather than two reins. The reason I suggest that is that when you ride off the bottom rein you're going to be getting the leverage effect which encourages the horse to bring his head in. Now that's OK for a horse that's inclined to poke its nose in the air and try to get above the bit but you have the opposite problem. The leverage effect is only going to make the btv worse.


Its possible that the horse likes the feel of the low ported mouthpiece so maybe a Myler bit or a kimberwick (not the Uxeter slotted version) would help?


I noticed you also mention the horse being a hard keeper - on the whole horses that are healthy aren't hard keepers. There's nearly always some underlying problem that we're missing. The most common being stomach and/or hind gut ulcers and encysted small strongyles
Both will cause extreme discomfort that will make a horse fractious.
Not sure when you last had the horse's dental work done and if so how well was it done?
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