Btv and running - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
What has the vet said about the nerve damage to the tongue? Is it painful or deadened?
The vet hasnt seen anything wrong other than loads of scar tissue. The injury originally happend 7 years ago.

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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
Are you working with a dressage trainer, or is it an eventing trainer who has to teach you dressage? How does she do in her dressage phase, has she done any pure dressage classes? There is a tenancy among event riders where they only do dressage because it's mandates, not because of the tools and skills it teaches.
Ive tried riding with so many different dressage coaches but majority told me to sell her and buy a different horse and the other ones said stop jumping her and do full time dressage with her.

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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
Why 7 days a week? Even top level horses get a day off. Their body needs recovery time. I'm wondering if you have her too fit and it's working against you. Yes, you need a fit horse to event at prelim. It's much harder to teach relaxation and rhythm if they are constantly against the muscle. Tired is good for that. Also consider that while she may je fir, she might not be strong enough. Btv and rushing are common when the horse isn't strong enough to carry themselves in balance.
I currently work her 6 days, with the optional walk hack on the other day if my body is up to it. I struggle with neuro issues in my spine and hips which most likely isnt ideal for this particular situation so i end up getting tired before she is.

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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
Her dressage work is rushed and short, even when jumping she consistantly gets in too close. It's not much, just a step or so, and she's athletic enough to make it happen.
Thats a me problem. My other horse jumps way better from the shorter distances and has a shorter stride, so when Diva was off for a bit i got used to jumping other horse for a while. This resulted in way different riding on my part. I agree that its not ideal, and im slowly easing other horse into dressage retirement, so ill be jumping Diva full time.

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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
She needs more 'wait' to the fences. Are you able to halt before fences if you wanted to? Approach, halt 3-4 strides out until they wait, then once they start to anticipate the halt, take the fence. She'll probably give a more impressive jump. The poles before and after is good too, but when they are quick on their feet, they can still take it through.
Ive tried this with a few coaches but it resulted either in rearing or a bad distance to the fence because she doesnt listen fast enough.

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Originally Posted by ApuetsoT View Post
Have you tried bits other than adding leverage? A Waterford is an option, also something like a kinton if she responded well to the hack. Those aren't legal in all phases. I'd prefer to use them as training tools then return to more conventional tack. FWIW, I wouldn't bother with something like a rope halter.
Ive tried a 2 ring elevator which she show jumps comfortably in currently, but hauls me around with on xc. Ive tried the pelham which i can mainly ride the snaffle ring with the leverage rein for a downward transition but it tucks her nose a bit too much for my liking
Ive tried a egg butt waterford but that basically was the same as a egg butt double joint, it didnt make a difference
Id like to try an elevator with the waterford mouthpiece and a traditional gag. A kinton is defiantly an option and ive seen people ride with a rein on the metal bit as well as the bit
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post #22 of 32 Old 04-16-2019, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
Its possible that the horse likes the feel of the low ported mouthpiece so maybe a Myler bit or a kimberwick (not the Uxeter slotted version) would help?
I ride her in somewhat of a ported mouthpiece. it has a lozenge in the port.


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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I noticed you also mention the horse being a hard keeper - on the whole horses that are healthy aren't hard keepers. There's nearly always some underlying problem that we're missing. The most common being stomach and/or hind gut ulcers and encysted small strongyles
Both will cause extreme discomfort that will make a horse fractious.
Not sure when you last had the horse's dental work done and if so how well was it done?
She is currently on G's formula just in case thats the issue. theres no signs of it other than her extreme 100lbs(ish) weight drop last summer. Her coat is shiny as can be, she gained weight so quickly once indoor season started, shes not girthy. the only things that *might* indicate ulcers is the sensitivity around her stomach.
I now know how to feed her, as before i didnt. once i put her on double what she eats now she looked like a warmblood within months. Im thinking of putting her on cubes if she starts dropping weight with the doubled up feed.
She also isnt free fed. she gets 3 flakes in the am, 1-2 for lunch and 4 in the pm.
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post #23 of 32 Old 04-17-2019, 11:40 AM
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You've got two locations for ulcers to worry about with a horse that competes in anything.
If your sport involves jumping and fast work you have to be careful about acid splashing up on to the part of the stomach that has no protective mucosal 'lining'. Its now suggested that horses get a small feed of something like a chaff/chopped forage prior to work to absorb the acid.
If you're feeding a diet that's high in starch the horse is at risk of getting hindgut ulcers


If you haven't dewormed with a moxidectin active then you should consider doing that.


Back to bits
I wonder how a Balding Gag with plastic mouthpiece would work?
The gag action is different to the gag action you get with the 2 and 3 ring bits that have a bit of leverage going on. This one has the straight mouthpiece that your horse seems to like in the Pelham but without a port and its soft enough to encourage him to go into the bridle/bit rather than evade it by going btv
They do a similar bit in a leather mouthpiece.
You can have two reins on it so you're working towards just having a snaffle unless you need the gag to kick in.
https://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/pr...d=1409&xSec=20

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post #24 of 32 Old 04-17-2019, 11:44 AM
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I had a look at your instagram. Beautiful horses you have, but Diva is definitely not thorough over her back yet and has a lot to learn on the flat. I think putting aside jumping for at least a few months and focusing on dressage would benefit you a lot. As the saying goes “ Jumping is just dressage over fences”. I realize that it will take a lot of time to go back to the basics, but the benefits will definitely out weigh the cons.

With every horse I’ve worked with, I always solidify the fundamentals at the walk before moving to the trot. This goes for any green horse and for any horse that needs re-training. After all, school never taught us to write essays until we know how to spell and write sentences. You need to show her how to move properly at the walk by herself before you add speed or obstacles.

I also think that a Dressage instructor would be a good idea. Pick someone that uses a training style that suits you and your horse. They may want you to switch over to their discipline, but just take it as a compliment and move on. I trained with a hunter jumper for a long time. That trainer constantly told me to sell my horse and buy a h/j (I’m a dressage rider). The trainer was 100% serious, but I just laughed it off and told him that It would only happen in his dreams 😂

Also, a little trick that helps to move your horse back onto the vertical. Lift your hands up and put your leg on to engage the hindend. Then, allow the horse to move your hands forward and back down to neutral position. Repeat this every time you feel her drop behind and make sure to reward her somehow when she moves back up to the bit. When they are first learning the appropriate response to this, they will go above the bit. Specifically, horses that have a habit of running onto the forehand. So, you may have to do a downward transition in between, then move forward again to set them back.
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post #25 of 32 Old 04-17-2019, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I wonder how a Balding Gag with plastic mouthpiece would work?
The gag action is different to the gag action you get with the 2 and 3 ring bits that have a bit of leverage going on. This one has the straight mouthpiece that your horse seems to like in the Pelham but without a port and its soft enough to encourage him to go into the bridle/bit rather than evade it by going btv
They do a similar bit in a leather mouthpiece.
I was thinking of moving her up to a traditional gag like such but with a french link mouthpiece. Diva despises mullen mouthpieces and thick mouthpieces, and drops behind the contact constantly in them. She also chews through rubber bits within weeks of using it (my coach had an elevator for me to use while i found my own but it was rubber and she shredded it)
The pelham i ride her in is a french link mouthpiece.
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post #26 of 32 Old 04-17-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jolly101 View Post
I had a look at your instagram. Beautiful horses you have, but Diva is definitely not thorough over her back yet and has a lot to learn on the flat. I think putting aside jumping for at least a few months and focusing on dressage would benefit you a lot. As the saying goes “ Jumping is just dressage over fences”. I realize that it will take a lot of time to go back to the basics, but the benefits will definitely out weigh the cons.

With every horse I’ve worked with, I always solidify the fundamentals at the walk before moving to the trot. This goes for any green horse and for any horse that needs re-training. After all, school never taught us to write essays until we know how to spell and write sentences. You need to show her how to move properly at the walk by herself before you add speed or obstacles.

I also think that a Dressage instructor would be a good idea. Pick someone that uses a training style that suits you and your horse. They may want you to switch over to their discipline, but just take it as a compliment and move on. I trained with a hunter jumper for a long time. That trainer constantly told me to sell my horse and buy a h/j (I’m a dressage rider). The trainer was 100% serious, but I just laughed it off and told him that It would only happen in his dreams 😂

Also, a little trick that helps to move your horse back onto the vertical. Lift your hands up and put your leg on to engage the hindend. Then, allow the horse to move your hands forward and back down to neutral position. Repeat this every time you feel her drop behind and make sure to reward her somehow when she moves back up to the bit. When they are first learning the appropriate response to this, they will go above the bit. Specifically, horses that have a habit of running onto the forehand. So, you may have to do a downward transition in between, then move forward again to set them back.



I love this post! especially the bolded parts. May I say that when using the 'lifting' of the hands to discourage going btv, if the horse just curls up harder, and leans on the bit, use ONE REIN more than the other, until the horse softens, and then, as @Jolly101 said, you invite the horse to carry your hands forward and down. This takes some finesse and learning, so really must be done at the walk, over and over again.
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post #27 of 32 Old 04-18-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiana Winkler View Post
I was thinking of moving her up to a traditional gag like such but with a french link mouthpiece. Diva despises mullen mouthpieces and thick mouthpieces, and drops behind the contact constantly in them. She also chews through rubber bits within weeks of using it (my coach had an elevator for me to use while i found my own but it was rubber and she shredded it)
The pelham i ride her in is a french link mouthpiece.
I'm not crazy about jointed pelhams - I think they can give mixed signals - in a double you have the option of the snaffle with the joint action or the leverage of the Weymouth with a low port.
I would rather have the gag action with a jointed mouthpiece than a curb action if I wanted more power, especially with a horse that goes btv in response to pressure.


Catherine Haddad has this good video explaining how to use the drive and lift action on horses that go too low and lean on your hands or get btv.
Its a very effective way to deal with those issues and one we use on a horse we have who tends to go too low and lean on your hands. A habit developed because a previous owner spent hours working her in some gadget or other.
What I will say though, it isn't a technique to use on a horse that's actually pulling against you to run off rather than just leaning, 'tunneling' and heavy in front but has no ambition to go anywhere you aren't asking it to go.
The moment you push them forwards and give them that inch to pick up in front they'll be gone.

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post #28 of 32 Old 04-18-2019, 01:54 PM
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You have a lovely horse. As others have said, she needs a lot of work on the flat. She is not ready for Prelim.

This is not a knock on you, but I have A LOT of friends that are eventers, and I don't understand why the dressage portion holds such less importance than the other 2 phases. Your dressage scores is what helps put you at the top. The dressage is what helps make better jumpers, gives you more connection with your horse on XC because you've established a firm communication, but time and time again, I see eventers that look at the dressage phase as "the part we have to get through" before we get to jump. If you are struggling with your horse on the flat, how in the world would she be ready for Prelim? The jumps are higher and the course and turns more difficult.

I had a friend that struggled controlling a very athletic pony who could jump his butt off with the big boys. He'd get on the course and rush at everything like someone lit a fire under his tail. She could barely control him and he would get upset when she tried to bring him back, despite years of trying to teach him to control himself and trying countless different bits. So she finally stopped jumping him for a YEAR, and focused strictly on dressage. He's a different horse now and they've been cleaning up at shows and qualified for champs for the 2nd time this year.

Like others have said, I would put competing on the backburner, and focus on fixing the issues. In the long term, it'll be better for the both of you and your success as partners.
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post #29 of 32 Old 04-18-2019, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
What I will say though, it isn't a technique to use on a horse that's actually pulling against you to run off rather than just leaning, 'tunneling' and heavy in front but has no ambition to go anywhere you aren't asking it to go.
The moment you push them forwards and give them that inch to pick up in front they'll be gone.
This is exatly the problem. Ill drop most of the contact and ask her to lift bit as soon as i do so she either picks of the canter because shes so unbalanced or stick her head up and act like shes going to rear because i dropped contact. This is a problem created by the trainer she was sent to as a 3 year old (if she moved up to a fence and ran away from it they'd forcefully pull her up by jabbing her in the mouth and back her up)
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post #30 of 32 Old 04-18-2019, 04:56 PM
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that is too bad. that she had that bad experience with the trainer. But, all the more reason to rebuild her confidence in accepting contact at the WALK. You can offer her that space to come up and forward, put a very light , encouraging leg on, and if she speeds up, you can very easily and gently ease her back to a walk for another try. Eventually, she will understand.
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