Don't Don't . . verses . . . Do Do! - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 05:39 PM
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My old instructor used to tell me to visualize my horse doing something just before I asked. Very often, she would do it before I got to the "ask" part. I don't think she was reading my brain, she was reading my body. Horses are way more subtle listeners than we give them credit for.
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post #12 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Avna View Post
It's just the same for people.
Love your post too Avna. And yes, we all, whatever species we are, learn in the same way, by the same principles. That's why I think in many ways, anthropomorphising, or putting ourselves in the horse's shoes is a good thing. So long as we also understand the ways we perceive & think differently to other animals as well.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 06:07 PM
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Watching his example, I don't see ""Do do" vs "Don't do" so much as I see "When I say don't, I mean don't!" Before, she was saying, "I don't enjoy being crowded when feeding". After, it was, "If you crowd me, there will be negative consequences."
Hmm, hadn't watched the vid, just responded to Tiny's comments. I do like WS & I think he's more positive than many, but yeah, upon watching, not a huge 'do do' there... Pardon the pun!

As I've said many times before, I have no prob with negative reinforcement, or appropriate punishment, but especially with horses, and muchly with dogs, people often use solely negatives, or at least very minimal & weak positive reinforcement, and they often don't 'notice' when the animal is doing Right - the horse is maintaining gait & direction on a loose rein, the dog is walking quietly at their side, and they only actually make a 'thing' about it, when the horse breaks gait, the dog strains on the lead...
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #14 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 06:10 PM
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goes along with the saying "direction is better than correction."
Now that's a great, simple saying I've never heard before. I will use that one in future.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #15 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Avna View Post
My old instructor used to tell me to visualize my horse doing something just before I asked. Very often, she would do it before I got to the "ask" part. I don't think she was reading my brain, she was reading my body. Horses are way more subtle listeners than we give them credit for.
I'm always careful to give the horse the benefit of the doubt if they do something I'm *thinking* of doing before I think I've asked for it. It means that sometimes, maaaaaybe, I'm letting them get away with something, but I'd much rather reward the super attuned response if it IS what happened!
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post #16 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=bsms;1970703097]Watching his example, I don't see ""Do do" vs "Don't do" so much as I see "When I say don't, I mean don't!" Before, she was saying, "I don't enjoy being crowded when feeding". After, it was, "If you crowd me, there will be negative consequences."

And part of what he had her focus on was the attitude. In the first case, the mare stood back, but was still showing irritation at the feeder. The irritation indicated there was still a problem. The mare was still challenging. The problem wasn't the distance but the attitude.





I think the thing that WS was emphasizing is that when you only say 'don't, and the horse stops being too close to you, but has not made any change, you are only building in its ability to lean right on you. Sure, it moved off enough to satisfy the command of ' don't push on me!", but, it is doing 'air pushing', in that it is looking for any breach in the wall to come back in. It NEVER let go of it's intention to push on you.


The "DO go over there!" approach is really about helping the owner focus her intention. She wants and needs that horse to wait , consistently, 'over there'. If she thinks only, "dont come any closer", the horse will more or less obey that, but keep pushing. If she says, (and reinforces) "Go OVER THERE!", and only rewards that, then she will be training in a greater respect for space in the hrose, and more goal oriented focus in herself.




I went for a wonderful ride today, ( I am so blessed!). X did every thing I 'asked', (and I did ask). I worked with the ' go forward' thought, verses the "don't slow down" thought . . . and it worked!


When we came home, and I dosmounted, put up the stirrups and looseneed the girth and gave a treat (the usual), and walked down the driveway, Sweaty X leaned toward the bushes with the intention of rubbing. I caught his thinking, and my response???? I thought, "Oh no you don't!!!!" (this because we had this experience before, which resulted in him damaging the saddle, and me getting myself kicked. long story)


I immeditately realized my thinking pattern, and I restated that as " OH, please come off those bushes, this way, right now!". And, it worked!!!
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post #17 of 18 Old 04-07-2019, 10:17 PM
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I can get Hamlet to step away from his hay and follow me - at liberty. I wait until he ate a few mouthful, then I put on some pressure to get his attention. As soon as he looks, I back a way with my best "come hither" body language. (Think, "What is it, Lassie?") Usually he goes back to eating, so I chase him away from his hay, 10 feet or so, and repeat. He then tends to follow me.

Sounds mean, I know, but I lead him to his grain bucket where I deposited his "Mane and Tail" supplements, which he considers a treat. After he finishes that, he can return to enjoy his hay.

It's just good to know that I can do it...never even have to touch him, and no bribes either - when he starts following me, he doesn't know that his destination is "snack".
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post #18 of 18 Old 04-08-2019, 11:33 AM
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Its a lot easier to start off by educating the horse on what they can do than it is to correct bad behavior that happens because the horse doesn't know better.
DH was putting hay out for Honey and K yesterday and then stood by K giving her a 'cuddle'. Honey stood watching. As soon as DH had walked out of the paddock she moved K away from her pile of hay. Its a daily game she has to play but she wouldn't do it until the human had gone.
I was quite surprised to realise that she'd remembered getting a really good whack 13 years ago when she decided to chase the newly acquired Willow away from her pile of hay while I was standing right next to her.
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Just winging it is not a plan
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