Food/Treat Aggression/Pushiness - Page 8 - The Horse Forum
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post #71 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rambo99 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtrailriders View Post
We live next door to my parents and my dad loves to go and feed the horses carrots over the fence. When he goes out into the pasture for whatever reason, my sweet little mare likes to go demand carrots and bite him on the shoulder if he doesn't have one. So seriously....70 year old men should not be feeding treats to horses and then going out in the pasture with them, but you can't tell a 70 year old man anything.

I don't treat the horses randomly over the fence for no reason. I halter them and tie them before I give them yummy things, and I treat them COPIOUSLY when they're in the trailer. I love to stop at gas stations and buy them gum drops and open the trailer windows to treat them. Then they love the trailer and the trips even more. No risk of getting bit on the shoulder that way.

Food aggression is part of horse behavior. A "food aggressive" horse is not a bad horse, it's just a regular horse. You have to avoid getting hurt, so you have to use common sense, but I don't think it's something you should try to train out of a horse. Why put yourself or the horse through the stress of trying to train something like that out of them? Just stay safe.
Sorry but I strongly dissagree with this, you have the making of a dangerous horse.

I will not tolerate a horse biting me because I don't have a treat. I will not reward agressive behavior for food or treats from my horse's. Were not talking about a 50 lb dog, we are talking about a 1000 lb or bigger horse.

My horse's wait patiently for there grain to be dumped into pan. They stand back and wait for me to walk away.


Your mare biting because there are no treats will escalate if not corrected. One day she'll turn her butt and double barrel someone with hind feet. One wrong placed kick can be deadly.

Safety is teaching your horse to have good manners on the ground, and in all aspects of life. If you don't you are failing them.
Yeah so what I’m saying is....people shouldn’t do the things that encourage horses to show food aggression, because if they’re allowed to do it they will. I can’t train my horse not to push my dad around when he keeps letting her treat him like a broken vending machine when I’m not around. I can train her not to be aggressive with ME, but she’ll show food aggression toward somebody who does the things my dad does. People need to realize the natural horse tendencies and not encourage the behavior but I don’t think it can be trained out of horses in general. It’s a natural trait. Just because she doesn’t do it to me I don’t believe she wouldn’t get pushy with someone who’s been hand feeding her over the fence no matter how much I train her not to be aggressive.
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post #72 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 07:01 PM
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Today my parents had my little step nieces out there in their Easter dresses feeding the horses over the fence, taking pictures, it was adorable and they got some very cute photos but I’m worried that the horses are learning that children mean treats. They eagerly run to the fence when they see children and I’m glad there’s a fence between them. When they ran out of the treats one of the horses started pawing and we corrected him but if a child who had been feeding him went out into the pasture and an adult wasn’t around....I’m afraid no amount of training would prevent a horse from getting pushy.
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post #73 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 07:25 PM
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Clicker training is based on "operant conditioning." Simplified, that's "ignore the bad; reward the good." Personally, I'm a big fan of clicker training, but you don't need to indulge in it to practice operant conditioning. When the horse is rewarded only for giving you the right answer, over time it will look for ways to earn positive reinforcement for positive behavior. You have to avoid the urge to treat the horse during every interaction you have with it, and you should try to set up situations where the horse can earn a reward easily. It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie. Read one of Alexandra Kurland's books to get a feel for this systematic training method. Positive reinforcement has been proven to be the most effective style of teaching, whether it is animals or people.
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post #74 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NeverDullRanch View Post
Clicker training is based on "operant conditioning." Simplified, that's "ignore the bad; reward the good." Personally, I'm a big fan of clicker training, but you don't need to indulge in it to practice operant conditioning. When the horse is rewarded only for giving you the right answer, over time it will look for ways to earn positive reinforcement for positive behavior. You have to avoid the urge to treat the horse during every interaction you have with it, and you should try to set up situations where the horse can earn a reward easily. It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie. Read one of Alexandra Kurland's books to get a feel for this systematic training method. Positive reinforcement has been proven to be the most effective style of teaching, whether it is animals or people.
This is up @loosie 's alley.

I believe you have made a mistake. +R is positively rewarding a desired behavior, which you are correct about. However, if you are taking off pressure (and therefore giving release), you are using -R, not +R.... For -R is the removal of undesired stimulus to help reinforce a desired behavior.

+R and -R are both used to reinforcement a desired behavior, but they are very different and should be careful as to not confuse the two.

-

I am a fan of +R; I use it all the time; it works. However, I don't use it as my "foundation." That's not really how horses work (through good deeds by bribery (in their eyes)). Horses, again, do do well with +R, but horses usually communicate by -R or +P. Although, I do think that some humans can tend to go a little overboard with the -R and +P, but you can't simply "ignore" a horse coming charging at you, ears back, and teeth bared, for example, and say, "pls no. bad horse. no cookie for u."

Using "If you do good, I'll give you a cookie" all the time is, essentially, bribery - not a "reward", although it can and does reinforce.

It can work for some things, for some horses, for some people, but not all - and not usually in the long run. It depends on the horse, the person, and the situation.

:/
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Last edited by Equilibrium; 04-21-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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post #75 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 09:55 PM
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i only give treats in moderation, usually after i work with the horse
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post #76 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 10:00 PM
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What book did YOU read?

To Equilibrium: Maybe you would like to enlighten all of us. What is this plus and minus stuff? Do you have advice for the person who posed the original question?
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post #77 of 85 Old 04-21-2019, 11:26 PM
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I believe Equilibrium posted the original post, . . I guess it's a question. She/ He is asking, I believe in a hypothetical inquiry, , . .,no?
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post #78 of 85 Old 04-22-2019, 12:49 AM
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I too recommend people learn about 'clicker training'. I dont personally use a clicker & am not a 'purist' about using only positive reinforcement, but the *principles* of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement training are invaluable to understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverDullRanch View Post
It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie.
You are correct that positive reinforcement doesn't have to be a food treat. It is not correct however that it is effectively the same as negative reinforcement(relief of pressure). Pretty sure that it's in this here thread, if you look back a few pages, that bsms &/or Hondo explained the difference quite well.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #79 of 85 Old 04-22-2019, 12:55 AM
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To Equilibrium: Maybe you would like to enlighten all of us. What is this plus and minus stuff? Do you have advice for the person who posed the original question?
I believe if you read the whole thread NDR, your question will be answered. I am actually confused that you discuss operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, butt you don't know the diff between +R & -R.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #80 of 85 Old 04-22-2019, 01:35 AM
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Never saw "R+ and R-" until this thread

All I can say is, I read Alexandra Kurland and tried to follow her instruction. My horse flabbergasted me with his excitement at learning new skills. Forgive me, ive not read whatever articles you've read. Apparently, they are light years ahead of us (in some respects) Down Under.
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Last edited by loosie; 04-22-2019 at 01:54 AM.
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