Girthy QH/TB - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 23 Old 04-17-2019, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PaganRider View Post
I think some misread my trainers approach. I dont think the trainer's method is out of line at all. In fact, several trainers and videos have backed her up. You go slow, let him throw his fit, bring him back, try again,
Yes, that's about the idea I got from what you wrote to start with, though maybe you made it sound a bit more abrupt than it was. And of course, I'm not there, I can't know, just from your words, the details of the horse's behaviour and specifics & timing of your trainer's responses.

OK, if you are experienced - and successful - at training like this, then you may have good reason to believe the trainer's method is not 'out of line'. I personally have different experience. Just because other people also advocate something, it is no reason to believe it's Good or Right though. You'll find 'several' at least people who advocate all manner of things. Many 'gurus' advocate using aggressive roundpenning for eg. Many people still 'break' horses... many people apparently still think the world is flat... etc.

As said, I think it's very important to be going slow enough to *avoid* pushing him to that point of 'practicing' his fear/reaction. Every single time you allow him to panic/react, bearing in mind immediate associations, especially if you then quit doing anything(allow him to have his 'dance'), you are a) giving him more 'practice' at this being a frightening event and b)his reacting works to get you to quit.

Basically put, if you are working to avoid causing fear/panic, but it happens, then you do what you can to minimise & reassure/calm the horse ASAP. BUT if there is no/little fear involved, and the horse *responds* to something with an explosion, in order to make you stop, then you keep pressure on(so long as it's safe to do so - your safety comes ahead of training) until the horse quits, to ensure the horse doesn't come to associate his behaviour with you quitting doing something he doesn't want you to.

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And he doesnt have panic attacks anymore like he did when she first started working with him. He gets the slightest bit worked up but I dont see him really panicking. Sometimes now, I wonder if he is just continuing a habit.
Yeah, but is 'not having panic attacks' because of, or despite doing what you're doing? And is he truly comfortable & confident with what you're doing? I don't believe so, if he's still antsy. And yes, as this has become a 'trained' thing, that he's now had LOTS of practice at, it will have ALSO become habitual. Doing the same thing over & over does tend to make for 'habits'.

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I stopped giving him as many treats through out the process because I felt he was more acting up at that point to get a treat after I brought him back to try again. So he gets reassurance and a steady hand in the process and treats after.
Yeah, remember horses learn from *instant* associations, so if you're giving him treats - or whatever positive(reward) or negative(removal of 'pressure') reinforcement - while he's reacting, then THAT(& the attitude/emotion) is what is being reinforced. So it's not about how many treats, releases of pressure, or whatever you do, but what behaviour/emotion is happening at the time you give them. And likewise, if he now only gets reinforcement/reward after the event, then whatever he is doing/feeling THEN is what you're rewarding. It will have no bearing on what happened previously, even many seconds previously.

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Maybe there isnt much more I can do besides give it time. I was just hoping someone had a tip I hadnt tried.
There absolutely is 'more that you can do' and if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got! Hopefully you will think about doing things differently, as it seems you haven't tried that. Hope my explanations help!
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 01:00 AM
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Ithus is a great place to use clicker training.
First , investigate how it is done, via videos. If your horse has never been exposed to clicker training, then you need to get the absolute basics down first

So, once he knows that a click means a treT is coming, your first goal is to train him that you stand at his shoulder, he on,y gets a click/. Treat when he puts his head straight forward. Get this good, then. Move to where you are standing at his girth line. You wait until he, puts his head forward. Click and treat. And make sure YOU. Reach forward to his head position rather then giving over the treat with him reaching back toward you.
You want him to go to that position. Wait for the click, and stay there for the reward.

Then you do this with your hand on the girth or billets. When he assumes the position you click and treat. Do this many times. Then after you've clicked, and treated, you immediately lift the girth a notch or two. He will be so busy with his treat he will hardly notice

Over time, the horse knows that he is trading off the treat for the discomfort of the saddle going up. But the small action of allowing him to choose to put his head in the correct, forward position for the treat is a way of getting him in involved in and accepting of the process

This is my normal procedure for girthing up my lease horse, who now has a love/hate relationship with it.
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post #13 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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I like that idea Tinyliny. I will get a clicker today. Bet I can put it to use with more behaviors too.

I also got a saddle pad with a cinch that is easier to throw on and off so that I can cinch him a couple more times a week than my one riding day. He did well yesterday with no pulling back or wary looks. He did calmly walk away a couple of times I was pulling up on it but I just walked over to fetch him and brought him back.
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 02:19 PM
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just make a clicking sound with your mouth. It's too much to hold the treat forward to his mouth AND the girth buckles AND the little clicker.


So, is he tied when you tack up, or ground tied?


mine is tied to a hitching post. He can move around a bit, but not walk away. if he moves sideways away from me, I just move with him, so that he gets no relief from moving away. I don't speed up the process, nor halt it for his moving around. if a horse needs to move a little, during the process, I'm ok with that, as long as he isn't swinging INTO me. Having him stand still is a good goal, but if he moves away, and you stop the process, bring him back, make him stand, he has earned a respite from the process by moving away from you, so he may likely want to do that again.
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post #15 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaganRider View Post
I like that idea Tinyliny. I will get a clicker today. Bet I can put it to use with more behaviors too.

I also got a saddle pad with a cinch that is easier to throw on and off so that I can cinch him a couple more times a week than my one riding day. He did well yesterday with no pulling back or wary looks. He did calmly walk away a couple of times I was pulling up on it but I just walked over to fetch him and brought him back.
What is the cinch like on the saddle pad? I ask because my Cob originally had a felt type girth and would act cinchy and pull back when I would cinch her. It was the correct size, but what I noticed was that it looked like it was laying flat, but it was actually pinching her right underneath between her legs.
I just wonder if your horse is being pinched somewhere.
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post #16 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
just make a clicking sound with your mouth. It's too much to hold the treat forward to his mouth AND the girth buckles AND the little clicker.
I don't use a clicker either, but... my tongue gets sore doing what you suggested Tiny I just use the word 'Good!!' in an enthusiastic manner...

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #17 of 23 Old 04-18-2019, 11:27 PM
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oh, for goodness sake! clicking is really easy. I wish I could click at my husband and kids instead of actually 'talking' at them!
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post #18 of 23 Old 04-19-2019, 08:11 PM
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^Haha! I can only imagine...
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #19 of 23 Old 04-25-2019, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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I see. I got afraid to try it with him tied because once I thought he was going to hurt himself when he pulled back (he didnt). And then once he was doing better I tried it again and he pulled back again and then when he couldnt find relief that time he just laid down. I thought maybe giving him the chance to see he could move away and not be "claustrophobic" would help with how excited he got. But I see what you are saying a well. I guess I could give it a few tries again and see what happens. ????

Oh and I have rings hooked about chest height into a couple of my trees.
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post #20 of 23 Old 04-25-2019, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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He did it with the trainer's very nice and broken in leather girth. Then I had one that came with a saddle pad, not sure what it was made of but kind of like the straps you strap down a load with, and he did it with that girth too. The saddle he came with had a fleece girth that wasnt that great but that I used until I got my new one and same thing. When I got my new Weaver felt girth in (nice, not too hard or soft, not too thin or thick, great reviews) we had the same outcome. I am positive it is not the girth.

I have started lifting their front legs a couple of times in between walking them out to make sure it is isnt pinching and is nestled well.

I will say that he is kind of a turd though... a loveable turd but still onery. He waits to sneak in the gate behind us. I have watched him bite his mate on the butt when his mate was tied up... just because he could. Things like that. So I have to wonder if Tiny is right and now he is leaning more towards I am doing it cause I get away with it rather than because I am scared.
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