Having baby issues, need suggestions. - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 66 Old 01-27-2017, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I've had horses with most of her issues but not all at once.
The begrudging thing I usually find in horses that have been pushed too hard, too forcefully, too soon. They do things because they've had to do them based on fear of getting punished rather than a trainer who's worked towards developing a willing horse. When these horses find themselves with someone they aren't regarding as a 'leader' or someone to fear they go totally non compliant
That doesn't sound to be the case with BB though does it?
I also find that the smarter the horse the more it has to see a task as being worth doing - it's why a lot of horses that can jump really well but if they can see that it's easier to go around the jump they will make the decision to do that unless they really love jumping because it's more logical. They aren't as stupid as we sometimes think
The 'nice girl' in the halter thing is easy - she feels she's under control when the halter's on. It's much the same as a horse that won't stand for clipping or having a wormer etc unless its got a halter on, even if no one's holding the lead rope it suddenly feels under control.
The only impossible horse I ever dealt with did progress but never enough to be what you could call safe and he was only ever with very experienced, mostly male, riders after he was sold by the man I worked for a huge loss against what he should have been worth. We lost track of him eventually but I always thought he had some form of brain damage (he had a difficult birth) or even a brain tumor.
I do know that WB's can be a very different sort of horse to any other breed, they're getting more and more TB blood in them so more mellow than they used to be. I know when I first worked with them in the early 70's I found them to be a completely different temperament to the various native pony breeds, Arabians, Irish Draughts and TB's I was used too.
This mare we have now is lovely and my husband adores her but she drives me nuts. I can see how easily she could be like BB and though the lady we bought her off got on well with her she had her from one of the Equestrian colleges and apparently the students there hated her and were afraid of her
Thanks, very insightful.
When I work with BB I do leave her halter off. It is risky at times but I feel that's the only way to get her to try instead of only comply.

She went through a stage of tantrums while waiting her turn for AM turnout. My first instinct was to want to yell at her, or tie her or punish her in some way but I remembered this thread & just ignored her. When she was calm & quiet I turned her out. It did take 2 hours the first time. Now only a few minutes.

Another time I was told by my barn helper that she reared up at him when he went into her stall. I went in & sure enough she did it to me too. I will admit she instantly got one whack on the front of her legs with the stick. She came down & stood there. Hasn't reared since.

This baby requires a mix of all training methods as each day can bring something different. Today she was perfect.
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post #32 of 66 Old 01-27-2017, 02:34 PM
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When we bought Jazzy the seller was really helpful and answered all of our questions. I asked then what she was like if she was kept in on her own or last in/last out and they said she was no bother at all. First morning she went absolutely ballistic when she wasn't turned out as soon as the first horse went out, rearing in her stable, racing around, kicking the walls, throwing herself at the walls and the door and was pretty scary as she lashed at me with her front legs when I went in to put a halter on her she was in such a temper. I'd got her in the paddock right outside the barn so I just opened the door and stood back. She raced out, had a mad run around and then spent the rest of the day in one tiny area by the gate - like she had an invisible fence around her.
She never did it again. She's usually last in/last out and will happily stand in on her own or go off on her own to be worked
I wonder if they just have a very low level of self control?
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post #33 of 66 Old 01-28-2017, 04:18 AM
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My main problem is I don't feel like BB behaves because she wants to but only because she has to. She has no desire to please. Praise means nothing. Everything is done with resentment.
The best way I can describe it is, you know how most horses have a 'How can I do this?' attitude? BB has a 'Why should I do this?' attitude
In my experience, vast majority of horses come my way only do what theyre told because they feel they must. If they do. Imo as a trainer, it is my responsibility to teach them 'work ethics' by not only 'making the wrong things difficult n right things easy' but making the right things Good n Fun for the horse. One generally practical n powerful reinforcement/reward is food, but thats not the only one. Youve got to use whats valuable to that horse at that time... think about each thing you do with her n what you can do to get her wanting to do it, rewarding enough.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #34 of 66 Old 01-29-2017, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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BB nailed me tonight. All was good, picking up her feet. After the last hind foot was already on the ground, without warning she kicked me right below my knee. She found out what the white stick can do then she was acting all nice.
Military school starts tomorrow.
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post #35 of 66 Old 01-29-2017, 11:12 PM
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Best of luck @natisha ! Is your leg ok?
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R.I.P. JC 5/19/85 - 12/9/14. You made my life better.
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post #36 of 66 Old 01-30-2017, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by natisha View Post
BB nailed me tonight. All was good, picking up her feet. After the last hind foot was already on the ground, without warning she kicked me right below my knee. She found out what the white stick can do then she was acting all nice.
Military school starts tomorrow.
Ouch! Trouble did this to me about two weeks after I got him. I had his grain pail in one hand and a stick in the other and he came running by in the barn and nailed me in the thigh. He definitely found out what that stick was meant for! Like you, his military style teachings started the next day. I found it was extremely good for him. He had very strict rules and punishment if he didn't obey those rules. After about a week he was as good as gold, and even now when the stick comes out he KNOWS he better be a very good boy that day because I'm done with his crap.

Personally I think that "boot camp" set him up to be an outstanding citizen. He learned exactly what what expected of him around people and he never strays far from those expectations. With strangers he will test the waters but all I have to do is point at him and he will put those ears up and stand at attention.
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post #37 of 66 Old 01-30-2017, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
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Best of luck @natisha ! Is your leg ok?
Thanks. It's OK to stand on but walking & bending it doesn't feel too great.

This baby is a mystery. I've had scared/mean unhalter broke adult Arabians who came around in less time. This one is like a light switch.
I may be having blood drawn to test hormones levels or something.
As much as I dislike this baby at times I still like her.
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post #38 of 66 Old 01-30-2017, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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Ouch! Trouble did this to me about two weeks after I got him. I had his grain pail in one hand and a stick in the other and he came running by in the barn and nailed me in the thigh. He definitely found out what that stick was meant for! Like you, his military style teachings started the next day. I found it was extremely good for him. He had very strict rules and punishment if he didn't obey those rules. After about a week he was as good as gold, and even now when the stick comes out he KNOWS he better be a very good boy that day because I'm done with his crap.

Personally I think that "boot camp" set him up to be an outstanding citizen. He learned exactly what what expected of him around people and he never strays far from those expectations. With strangers he will test the waters but all I have to do is point at him and he will put those ears up and stand at attention.
I hope to get her like your guy. I've been more than fair & kind to BB while still not letting her get away with anything but I don't think she understands limits or that what she's not allowed to do today she is not allowed to do tomorrow. I never know what I'll get.
I'm going to talk to my vet & rule out any physical/chemical problems. I hate to punish her if it is something she can't control, although I did rather enjoy 'kicking her back.'
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post #39 of 66 Old 01-30-2017, 12:59 AM
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I hope to get her like your guy. I've been more than fair & kind to BB while still not letting her get away with anything but I don't think she understands limits or that what she's not allowed to do today she is not allowed to do tomorrow.
Yeah, I think getting bloods, etc done is a good move. I have seen mares get... hormonally savage! And yes, keep being 'fair & kind' as much as you possibly can, ensure that she gets lots of Good Stuff when she 'does right' to encourage more of that...

Perhaps due to inconsistent/ineffective punishment in the past, she has learned it's not all that meaningful, and her 'bad' behaviour is always worth a try. While I don't generally 'do' heavy punishment, in fact I rarely punish at all as a rule - it's very much the exception - in this sort of situation, for it to become effective, meaningful, you will have to 'bring out the heavy guns' and make it strong enough punishment that she will definitely think very seriously before risking copping it again 'tomorrow'. That may mean that you have to be pretty extreme about it. But if it's enough to 'mean what you say', you shouldn't have to do it more than about 3 times max.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #40 of 66 Old 01-30-2017, 07:36 AM
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Sounds like a baby who hasn't been given boundaries. They can be stinkers. PARTICULARLY FILLIES!!!

My current mare (and now my favorite horse!!!) was a terrible kicker as a young horse. Even when I worked enormous amounts with her, her default if she was really scared was to lash out. She just couldn't seem to handle it for a long time. We desensitized, but if I surprised her... ZIP... she would kick. As a two year old she kicked my boyfriend- now husband at a show because he walked around the trailer at a show carrying her coggins papers.

And she was not a dominant horse in any way shape or form... still isn't. It was a fear response for her. So you work on it, but often you need to be aware that horses need to get confidence and that she is a baby and densentize as MUCH as you can but be careful.

I do think you need to punish for 3 seconds if they kick. And then you move on. My 2 yr old filly now kicked when I got her last year because no one taught her that she could have nice leg manners. So she was a bully about her legs, and for her, I was just able to teach her to work through her fear/lack of respect(learning trust) for humans giving over her legs.

Different problems, different horses. But desensitizing and learning trust all needed to happen. But you should never 100% trust a horse with their legs. They can all kick.
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