Herd bound horse...Iím back... - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 36 Old 05-10-2019, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael1986 View Post
To be blunt, Iím sick of this stupid horse, his extreme buddy sour issues are irritating me. His brain shuts off, he is dangerous and disrespectful. Iíve taken to carrying a whip with me so if he invades my personal space he gets whacked in the chest or side, if for no other reason then to remind him not to trample me.
Sounds to me like you don't have a lot of understanding about the horse & his behaviour, so you're taking it personally, getting angry about stuff that's not warranted or helpful. If you're so sick of him, you could sell him to someone who will be happy to have him?

Why do I get the above idea? You lable him 'stupid' for being 'buddy sour'. No, this is just 'horse' - some are more insecure than others, but it is up to the *human* to ensure the horse is comfortable & confident in their environment, and if they are just 'buddy sour' when being taken out with a human, then it is how that human behaves, prepares the horse, reinforces what they want, etc. So if your horse is only 'buddy sour' going out with you, YOU are the one who needs to change.

You say 'his brain shuts off' - yes, that is pretty much what an animal does when they panic, especially if they haven't got anyone around they've learned they can trust & rely on. When someone panics, they do tend to stop thinking rationally & just react. It is NOT 'disrespect' or 'rudeness' that they may run over you in this state, it is just being oblivious about the little things, because emotions & reactions have taken over the show. For your safety though, yes, being ready to hit the horse or whatever it takes to stop them running over you may be appropriate. But not getting angry about it, not doing it as punishment for 'rude' behaviour.

So... studying equine behaviour & bodylanguage, to better understand & be considerate of him would be my first suggestion. Then you will better be able to train & respond to him more effectively & without being angry, so you will be able to start *earning* his trust & respect.

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If I have this idiot out of his pasture to graze or whatever he seems fine even if he canít see my other horse. But if my other horse is out with me and grazing or whatever and he is in his pasture, he loses his mind.
So that's good, if he is OK going out with you. Yes, a lot of horses are insecure being left alone. I have a horse like that, he's more than happy to go out with me, or to leave his friends, but if any of them leave him, he throws a wobbly!

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So basically my options seem to be...move this idiot so he never sees my other horse again, sell him or my idea was to begin working this horse hard everyday.
I have no idea about any 'method' by CA or such, but while I decided it was 'too hard basket' to worry about changing my horse's behaviour on this(as he doesn't get left alone, seems more... indignant than stressed), the only way I imagine to deal with it effectively is the same way as getting a horse to be confident & happy to go OUT alone - that is, in baby steps, not going too far to cause real fear, and reinforcing/rewarding him. It could also be helpful to give him a calming paste or such, to help matters.

IMHO it is totally unfair to separate him & keep him in solitary confinement because he gets stressed when you leave him. Perhaps if he wasn't left alone, but had another horse(or other animal) with him when you take your other horse out...

While if you worked him hard, so he was exhausted when you took your horse away, he may well be quieter, less vocal, but this would not cause him to stress any less. And you will have to work him harder & longer each day as he gains fitness, to to exhaust him.

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I thought we had a great relationship but I see now I babied him and now he is a spoiled punk who just wants to eat all day and be with his buddy.
That he stresses when left alone is not in the least 'spoiled punk' behaviour. It is just 'horse'. Are there other reasons why you think he's 'spoiled'? I do think you could have a greatly improved relationship with him though, if you understood & so were able to empathise with him though.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #32 of 36 Old 05-10-2019, 01:24 AM
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Wrote the above after reading the original post, before reading other's or OP's follow up. I appreciate the 'needing to vent' thing - I've jokingly said 'to knock some sense into the idiot' when someone asked what I was taking a sledge hammer into the paddock for... But the way you were 'venting' made it clear that you do feel this horse is an idiot & that you have little understanding for him. Good that you don't take your frustration out on him, but your attitude will be having an effect all the same.

I won't go further here, if you're not going to be bothered reading much, but will just say, I wish your horse the best.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #33 of 36 Old 05-10-2019, 07:13 PM
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I got a horse two weeks ago tomorrow that is extremely buddy sour, full blown panic attacks when he's separated from the others. You and I are dealing with the problem in a completely different manner. I don't lose my temper. I don't whip him. I don't call him an "idiot." None of that helps because he wouldn't be able to understand it. The previous owner told me the horse had spent all last summer tied to a tree, away from the other horses, so that he would "learn". That probably made things worse. I figure the only chance I have is to convince him that being away from other horses isn't a death sentence, that nothing bad will happen to him. This is him a few days ago. He's approximately 1/10th of a mile away from the herd. The other horses are out of sight. He's not completely relaxed, but he isn't having a meltdown. All my other horses will go out solo. But they were never as bad as this guy is. I don't know if it will work, or not.
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post #34 of 36 Old 05-10-2019, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoonWatcher View Post
Unless the horse is doing something plainly dangerous, simply "feeling worried about [one's] safety" is not enough to warrant smacking the horse.


I cannot verbally express how potentially dangerous that could be. The added factor that cross ties greatly restrict head and body movement could send an already anxious or nervous horse over the top.
I think that's fair. I think I got something different from reading it.

I am envisioning her taking the horse out, and it starts jigging, then the further it gets the more it starts doing, and being allowed to do, going faster, maybe swinging it's head to try to see behind it, which is very dangerous to the handler, depending on how much this horse is getting away with it could also be giving some bucks and kicks in there with any of it's 4 feet. I think if the horse is doing this it would be ok to pop it with the end of the rope like, hey cut it out. I think at this point it's pretty clear what most people think about this situation.

It doesn't necessarily need to be crossties, it could be a pole, side of a trailer, in a stall away from the pasture, the point is having somewhere to let the horse stand and chill out after being worked to think about how it's not all that bad away from the pasture. I think the part you mention about the crossties restricting body movement is true. I didn't see anything about the horse being claustrophobic. I know it's buddy sour, but there's no indication that it pulls back in the crossties leading me to believe that it would be a dangerous situation, if you get my drift with that. In the context of my post crossties could be any space other than the pasture that the horse may need to stand in a relaxed manor.

I felt it might help to clarify.
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post #35 of 36 Old 05-10-2019, 11:22 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, @Filou .

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Originally Posted by Filou View Post
I am envisioning her taking the horse out, and it starts jigging, then the further it gets the more it starts doing, and being allowed to do, going faster, maybe swinging it's head to try to see behind it, which is very dangerous to the handler, depending on how much this horse is getting away with it could also be giving some bucks and kicks in there with any of it's 4 feet. I think if the horse is doing this it would be ok to pop it with the end of the rope like, hey cut it out. I think at this point it's pretty clear what most people think about this situation.
As I said before, I don't know them, their horse, or their situation. I've worked with horses that have acted like you describe, and if their horse is acting that way, I'm still not positive if I'd pop the horse. Maybe I would. Maybe I wouldn't. It's hard to clearly say what I would do without being there. If I do choose to pop the horse, I trust you understand why.

If I choose not to pop the horse the first time around, let me explain.
I'd put the horse in a rope halter so they would have a harder time leaning. Horses like that need good, clear direction, so that's what I'd give them. While it is a start, there is more to leadership than simply correcting a horse that gets a little too close or distracted. I'd ask them to lunge and/or back. That is not for discipline but to get the horse's attention back on me, reaffirm I can and do control their feet, and to (hopefully) calm them. Movement can either calm or excite a horse, depending on your attitude. In this case, it's to calm them to teach them they are not trapped. If the horse is completely oblivious to my existence, then I probably would pop them just to get their attention.

This is for a hypothetical scenario based on your post, not necessarily for the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filou View Post
I didn't see anything about the horse being claustrophobic. I know it's buddy sour, but there's no indication that it pulls back in the crossties leading me to believe that it would be a dangerous situation, if you get my drift with that.
I understand what you are saying, but I still have to disagree. Most, if not all, horses are claustrophobic to some degree by nature and dislike the feeling of being trapped. They will continue to be this way until we teach them to accept being in tighter and more restricting places. Some horses learn to accept this better than others.

I did not say that it would be a dangerous situation but that it could (don't quote me on the "technically, all situations could potentially be dangerous" thing). Until he learns that it is okay to be alone, he will be nervous. Even if he has otherwise been taught to stand in the cross ties like a statue, that nervousness would likely escalate since his movement is extremely limited. If he panics, pulls, and/or breaks loose, he will then have learned a bad lesson and have a negative association with the cross ties. If that happens, that will make his buddy sourness worse because he learned that negative things happen when he is away from his buddy.

As I have said in another thread, I could right a book about my dislike for cross ties. Anyway, if you were to take him away to rest, I vote for 1) hold and hand graze him (unless he is going to steamroll over you), 2) high-tie single point with a good length, or 3) a large stall or pen.
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"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." - Confucius

Last edited by LoonWatcher; 05-10-2019 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Adding.
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post #36 of 36 Old 05-25-2019, 10:40 PM
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For what it's worth guys, even if OP wasn't receptive to the responses, they've absolutely been helpful for me. So, thank you!

I'm actually staring down the barrel at dealing with this situation myself. Our two horses haven't been out of sight of each other in probably 5 years, and we're currently making improvements to our new-ish property that will allow us to actually work with them at home, so.. yeah. I've got my work cut out for me.

There are two things that did jump out at me as counter-intuitive or possible sticking points. In my completely non-expert opinion, I feel like if this horse is going to level 10, she's asking too much of him in one go. Personally, I'd break it down into much smaller steps, whatever those may be. "Nervous" is a lot easier to handle than "panicked". For instance, if you can't even get a fence between the two without a freakout, then don't. Take them both out (with the help of a friend) and test the waters for how far you can get them apart while still keeping his anxiety manageable. Then work to extend that distance over time. Distract him, reward him, move him around, and/or wait it out if you can. Find whatever combination of those approaches works to the point where you end the session with some sign of improvement. And DON'T punish him. This problem didn't happen overnight, it's not going to be fixed overnight, so take as many baby steps as you need to do it properly.

The second thing is the suggestion (if I was understanding it correctly) to take him out, work him hard, then bring him back and let him rest. Again, I'm no expert, but I feel like that would be reinforcing the notion that going away is terrible and being back with his buddy is the best thing ever. I feel like the opposite approach should be taken, should you go that route. Work him hard in the paddock with his buddy there, then take him out to graze/rest. (That said, if he's fine leaving the buddy behind in general, this may not be the way to go for this particular horse anyways.)

Last edited by Surrealle; 05-25-2019 at 10:52 PM.
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