Herd bound Warmblood - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
 22Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 25 Old 04-18-2019, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
I kind of think it is a 'human problem' because it is the horse being unwilling - for whatever reason - to go off with a human & leave his mates.

If he's always been willing to just follow you around, leave his mate before Rachael, and you have now just started 'serious' training with him, then it's likely something about what/how you're training that he's obviously uncomfortable with. Without details, who knows what specifics tho.

I do not agree with the 'tie em up & let em get over it' though. They may well 'give up' in that situation, but they aren't likely to really relax, be happy & confident in that situation - and if they think you might take them away to do that sort of thing, they often become more 'hedgy' about being caught & taken out.

Agree with Equilibrium that 'little & often' is a good move, and also ensuring that what you do with him is Good Stuff for him. Not unpleasant 'work' or such.

Oh and hows the pony about his leaving? Any chance their behaviour is what's upsetting him?
The training we have started has mostly been short lunging work for about 15-20 minutes mainly to get him back into shape slowly. He has not shown any pain or issues with the actual work itself, it just seems that if he gets too far from my pony he loses his mind. And it’s not like he can’t see my pony wherever we are, he always has the ability to see him.
The pony couldn’t care less about him. He seems to like it when my warmblood is gone, he beats the crap out of my warmblood and I feel like if I ever moved my warmblood my pony would be happier about it. He is definitely the herd leader, but I have always been the leader of both of them. And have never had issues like this before.
I’ve been brainstorming on what this could have been caused by (I try to keep their lives as consistent as always). They have round bales with slow feed nets around them and they don’t get grain. They are wormed the vet is coming out this week for yearly heath checks, and they look happy and heathy. The only thing I wonder if it could be is that this January the pony was chasing and beating up the warmblood so bad my warmblood became injured. So for the first time we put him in his own pen alone (that is right next to the ponies pasture so they always saw each other). He healed completely in a couple weeks but we left him in the other pen For a while because he seems to enjoy not getting beat up and I wasn’t finding bite marks on him so we left him there for a few months. When we were feeding we noticed that he began pinning his ears at my pony and acting all tough (something he never did before, he has always been the lowest horse in the herd). When we moved him back he stopped doing that. Could that have caused this somehow?
Rachael1986 is offline  
post #12 of 25 Old 04-18-2019, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael1986 View Post
Thank you! I am doing as much research as I can, it’s just so frustrating since we had such a good relationship before and it’s just suddenly gone.

No, i doubt it has 'suddenly' gone, just as I doubt you had a truly 'great' relationship.

Yes, you might have thought so.

Yes, your horse might have done what you asked.

Possibly the reason for being compliant is because he didn't know how to not be but started with little things that didn't really matter then this escalates until it manifests into something major like refusing to go away from his friend.

What to do about it?

Personally I would ride it out of him. If he balked he would get a good hard meaningful whack behind my leg to let him know I mean business.

You can follow the Clinton Anderson way of you have an area where you can work him hard, tight and fast.
It may not make sense in words, and I’m not quite sure why so many keep discounting me when I say we had a good relationship and this is happening suddenly, but despite that, we did. Wether anyone believes me or not. We used to be so close that I could leave him halterless in a field and he would stay close to me. He would follow me like a puppy, I loved this horse so deeply and felt such a connection with him. Have I spoiled him wiith treats? no. Have I worked him a lot since I got him? No. Has my work been hard on him? No. I have begun working him in a way where the work is slow and steady and is very slowly building up, we literally just got out of a period of lunging. Because he has been working beautifully relaxed and calm. And I have actully separated him from the pony many times before and never had this problem before.
Maybe I have been too gentle with this horse, I have never asked a lot of him even in the work. And this behavior only started a couple of days ago so again, yes this is sudden.
Rachael1986 is offline  
post #13 of 25 Old 04-18-2019, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27
• Horses: 0
I never said I expect him to be a perfect little angel! I just expect him to not run me over! If you find it acceptable for your horses to run you over simply because they are getting back into work then I think that is dangerous and bad horsemanship.
And I will repeat myself for the hundredth time...the work that I am doing with him has been slow work to build his body slowly over a long period of time! I’ve said it to my horse friends that I like to think of it like a person getting back into shape after a long time off of exercise. Any time my warmblood has seems sore from a day of work wether we worked for 10-20 minutes he gets a day or so off for recovery. I never push this horse and I never treat him like a machine. This horse also gets daily soreness checks and rub downs.
Rachael1986 is offline  
post #14 of 25 Old 04-18-2019, 01:16 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 46,807
• Horses: 2
This has me thinking about dominant/subordinate placement in horse ranking, and how that affects the horse that is taken away from the 'herd'.


I am wondering, and this is just a general question, which horse can better handle being taken from the herd; the dominant horse, or one of the lower subordinates? Or, is there no correlation?


Sometimes I think the subordinant horse has a harder time handling being taken from teh herd because they are being seperated from the leader, even if that leader picks on them. Suddenly, they have to take care of themselves. Perhaps, if you are being TOO easy on your horse, not giving him enough really clear direction, he will be looking backward , mentally, to where he feels like there IS strong direction? Could that be it?


Or, is it that through his experience of being seperate from pony, he has become more dominant, and being taken away from his herd means he is feeling unable to 'lead' them, and thus thinking back to the pony.


I honestly don't know. If I were trying to lunge a horse that was not paying attention and was in danger of running me over, I would have to get bigger than the thing that is drawing his attention away from me. If trying to calm him with soft words, or petting him isn't working, then he needs to have something happen that is strong enough to interrupt his locked on focus toward the pony.



People often say, "two eyes, two ears'. Sometimes if a horse is really not paying attention, and just moving around you crazily on the lead or lunge line, you need to first get them to stop and really LOOK at you . I hate to say it, that can look harsh, such as a sharp shank on the line, a really hard snake of the line (sharp, fast wiggle of lead rope). a smack of your hand hard on your thigh (noise). It may startle your horse, but at least YOU are the center of their focus.


When they do , indeed , look at you with both ears and both eyes, then you can calmly direct their feet somewhere. If they start to lose it, do the same thing to get them to stop , turn and LOOK at you, then calmly direct them to walk on. or trot, but not all out crazy running.
AtokaGhosthorse likes this.
tinyliny is offline  
post #15 of 25 Old 04-18-2019, 06:18 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 19,458
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael1986 View Post
The training we have started has mostly been short lunging work for about 15-20 minutes mainly to get him back into shape slowly. He has not shown any pain or issues with the actual work itself,
So... does 'no issue with the work' mean he enjoys it or just does as he's told? I can't imagine running in circles for 15-20 mins(that's not starting 'short' IMO) is much fun for him. I don't actually think lunging is a great exercise for fittening - because it's just too tedious & boring - you can exercise their body, but their mind goes awol. I don't believe it promotes a good relationship at all.

Quote:
he beats the crap out of my warmblood and I feel like if I ever moved my warmblood my pony would be happier about it. He is definitely the herd leader, but I have always been the leader of both of them.
Sounds like pony is a bully, and WB is rather insecure. How old is WB? How big is their paddock? Does/can he not stay out of pony's way? Just like a school bully who might have the 'obedience' of less assertive kids at a school, your horse may 'kow tow' to pony, and if he's the only equine company, he may feel more secure with him, but that's not synonymous with 'leader' IMO. And maybe you have always been 'the boss' but not seen as a 'leader' either. Maybe. Only speculating, but...

And I differ from Fox's opinion here, that I don't believe you can/should just force them to work hard to 'get them over it', whack it out of/into them. That will likely give you obedience - & if that's all you want... - but I want my horses to feel happy about the 'work' I want of them, to enjoy it, be comfortable, confident to be with me.

If he's been recently separated from 'the devil he knows', when he was injured, this could well be to do with it - he thinks he's not going to be allowed back with 'devil' when you take him out. I've had horses like that. One of mine was the most independent horse I'd met. He was not a worry at all when mates came or went. He would actually leave his friends & walk over a couple of hills for miles alone, to visit a neighbouring farm with a lone horse(I found out he'd been making a practice of this when he was gone one day, that he'd been visiting at night regularly!). After taking him away to a (bad) trainer for only a week, he came back so stressed & frazzled, he still gets really stressed if his mates are out of sight, worried even if they're on the other side of a fence! It took me a lot of work to get him back to the point of going out happily with me.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #16 of 25 Old 04-19-2019, 01:57 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW UK
Posts: 14,568
• Horses: 0
The fact that this horse follows you when loose in th field shows he is curious and likes you.

The fact that he runs into you shows he has not any respect for you.

That tells me that there is not such a great bond on his behalf.
Foxhunter is offline  
post #17 of 25 Old 04-19-2019, 11:05 AM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Michigan
Posts: 319
• Horses: 0
What was he doing before you brought him back into work? If he has been sitting in the pasture with his buddy for the past weeks or even months, of course he is going to prefer that over working. Carry a crop and have him in a rope halter, and be ready to mean business. If he starts trying to turn back towards his buddy, or begins pushing into you, get his feet moving. Yield his hindquarters, back him up fast - work him until he is focused on you. Continue walking away from the pony. Rinse and repeat.

I do not let any horse, whether it be my own or one of my clients, run me over. I have never allowed a horse to get to that point, because this is something you catch when it starts rather than letting it get to an extreme. This was not an overnight change, it may have started with him just keeping an ear in the pony's direction, or looking back at his friend - it could've been caught then.

Toofine - 1998 Half Arabian
Minnie - 2013 Morgan
ClearDonkey is online now  
post #18 of 25 Old 04-19-2019, 12:31 PM
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 213
• Horses: 0
I recommend finding videos on Youtube, etc. of professionals working through the herd-bound behavior.



I wanted to point out that he may have been the injury that brought out the herd-bound behavior. I have had a horse for years who was never herd-bound until he contracted EPM and a hock injury. He used to love to hang out by himself and graze in the round pen next to the pasture. Since his illness/injury, he spends a lot more time looking for "monsters" in the woods behind the pen. When they're injured, they realize that they are weak and vulnerable without the protection of the herd.
3Horses2DogsandaCat is offline  
post #19 of 25 Old 04-19-2019, 07:18 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 19,458
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Horses2DogsandaCat View Post
I recommend finding videos on Youtube, etc. of professionals working through the herd-bound behavior.
Pardon but with that extremely broad recommendation, you can find the good, the bad, the ugly there, so pays to have a good understanding before just following any old 'professional'.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #20 of 25 Old 04-23-2019, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27
• Horses: 0
Tinyliny You nailed it! I talked to an old trainer of mine and she said that he has no respect for me at all. And yes you are right about me being too soft on him as well. My pony is the only one whom I can do anything with anywhere and he really doesn’t seem to care. I did notice this week, as I have started ground manners work with my warmblood that my pony has started acting up a little bit, but nothing that I wasn’t able to nip in the bud almost instantly. The warmblood on the other hand is giving me a run for my money. My trainer told me I need to ask, tell and then demand the correct behavior. I have added a nose chain and whip to my training. It’s been working pretty well but yesterday we seemed to have our biggest breakthrough. I had worked with him on the ground and then tied him up for a bit, this would have been about 40 minutes of working with him and he still wasn’t settling or giving me his eyes ears or respect. So I decided to take him to an empty muddy pasture (so as not to tear up my yard) I began lunging him and he was doing this crazy wild cantering where he wasn’t respecting my personal space or paying attention to where his feet were. So as he passed I gave a sudden yank to the lunge line and he did a slow motion roll onto his side. When he got up he looked at me like, “My goodness, your stronger then I anticipated.” Then I asked him to continue trotting and he was a total angel. He was still kind of looking for my pony, but for the first time he actually seemed like he realized he was being an idiot. I led him to the water trough and let him drink then I tied him to a tree in the empty pasture while I went out and worked with my pony. I noticed that he didn’t seem to fight being tied up as long and he relaxed more then I saw him do in days. I’m eager to go work him today to see what sticks and what we have to continue to work on.
Foxhunter likes this.
Rachael1986 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Herd bound horse calling to herd and advice Horsesaremylife150 Horse Training 20 03-05-2015 03:04 PM
herd bound vs herd animal?? Delta Dawn is my girl New to Horses 14 10-12-2014 08:30 AM
Is every horse, in some way, herd bound carriegeorge100 Horse Talk 4 04-29-2007 04:49 PM
herd bound jill Horse Training 7 12-22-2006 04:25 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome