Horse doesn't like being tied up? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 37 Old 06-13-2019, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by stubbornamber View Post
And because we already use a Blocker Tie Ring and we still get the same reaction, it was suggested to me by April that I try ground tying
I am interested to know how you have used the tie ring? I suspect, to have 'an aversion' to it & react the same, you may have possibly gone about it the wrong way?

Yes, for now at least, just holding her lead or teaching her to 'ground tie' is a good move. But you can't rely on ground tying, so for safety reasons, in some situations, she may need to be tied. So I'd still work towards that. Unless perhaps you never intend to take her off the property or such. I WOULD NOT tie her firm though, until she is *calm & reliable* about 'tying' using something like a tie ring or rope around a rail, with reasonably firm pressure(but you don't start there), in a variety of different places/situations.

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And it may well be that these issues developed since coming to our barn but I can't really see that being the cause.
Yeah, not at all meaning it IS only, or even some after she came to you, just that it could be. And yes, I did note that she came from a dealer, so who knows her past...

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #12 of 37 Old 06-13-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by stubbornamber View Post
We do use the Blocker Tie Ring at my stable and it, sadly, doesn't help. We have tried to keep her tied so it gives it but doesn't break but that only serves to make her panic more until it's dangerous for everyone involved. We don't want to risk someone get hit or Sophie falling and hurting herself while she panics ...
I certainly haven't heard of the method with the long rope and the ring,
Pardon that I didn't read this before my last reply. Essentially, the 'method with the long rope and the ring' IS the 'method' you use with a tie ring. You don't put the horse in a 'sink or swim' situation she's likely to panic. Equipment such as this doesn't work all by itself, it's a training tool.

She is, for whatever reason, frightened of being tied. So she panics & pulls back. This has a) likely confirmed some of her fear about this situation, by causing her pain, when she pulled hard enough to break something or flip and b) taught her she can get loose, escape from the situation. So, to keep putting her back in that situation is only likely to further confirm her attitude/reaction. And if she is put in a situation where she's tied stronger, can't easily break away, she will likely just 'try' harder, panic more.

Many people suggest to just tie her with something really strong(& wide around her neck & high, to reduce risk of injury), TO something really strong - ie not your average fence post or rail!, and just leave her to fight it out until she gives up, learns it's useless. I don't personally like this sort of approach, because I think the *motivation & attitude* behind the behaviour is more important, relevant & effective to change. This method doesn't do anything to reduce the horse's fear, just 'break' them of the hope of trying to escape. Behaviouralists call this 'learned helplessness'.

With the 'long rope method', if you like to call it that, whether you use a Tie Ring, a regular ring, rope wrapped around a rail, abseilers 'figure 8'(discovered these work great & way cheaper than Tie Rings), whatever... you use *gradual desensitisation* to get her used to being in that situation and with feeling pressure from the lead to stay there, and you *avoid/minimise* causing more 'practice' being afraid & panicking.

So... I'd start leading her into the 'tie spot' & just standing there with her. If she's fine, go to 'phase 2'. If not, use 'approach & retreat' - bringing her in, taking her out, before she gets very nervous, until she realises it's nothing *& she's not pulling on you at all* Then asking to stand for gradually longer, as she can manage. Once she's *calmly* standing there, phase 2....

I'd use at least about 15' rope. The reason for a long rope(& your situation may call for longer, as SilverMaple described) is that she can go as far as she feels the need, without actually getting loose. But if she's in a smallish yard or... has a round pen to back into or something, that saves you having to have acres of rope! Not that, IME they tend to go that far anyway. I'd run the rope through the ring(or whatever) ONCE to start with. So there is practically no 'grab' on it at all. You keep hold of the loose rope, 'wind it in' so it's as short as it would be if tied. But you're holding the slack. *In such a way it can run through your hands when she pulls back. This is where gloves come in handy, because you want to put *a little* pressure on it as she pulls back, but not enough to cause her more fear. And if she's able to back out of the situation without feeling trapped, she will not be so reactive about it & soon get over her fear of being 'tied' with that much pressure, so it gives you a base to gradually build on. Each time she rushes backwards, you just wait for her to stop & calm, then calmly reel her back in. Rinse & repeat until she is no longer worried about standing there.

THEN you can *gradually* increase the 'grab' by taking another wrap around the rail or whatever. It will still give *easily* if she pulls back, but she will feel more pressure/discomfort when pulling on it. Do as above with that amount of pressure, before increasing a bit more. Etc.

By the time you've got to using firm enough to be difficult for her(but still yielding, for safety - although it may be strong enough not to yield to a puny human) pressure, she should be fine with it. At that point, I would leave it at that, for a while at least, just 'tie' her like that. She's unlikely to panic by then, but if she does, she's still not tied firm, to feel really trapped & escalate panic or risk of injury. I do tend to still tie mine in that manner(or far lighter), when it's safe to do so - because you never know. But I'd avoid tying her firm until she's reliable & had lots of practice *in different situations* with that 'phase'.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #13 of 37 Old 06-14-2019, 03:20 PM
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What's interesting is that you say this horse is fine in cross ties, but not straight tied, with any kind of barrier in front of her.

A horse that panics being tied will usually be equally as panic stricken in cross ties, if not more so.


This is either an issue of her not knowing how to give to pressure, or her being claustrophobic if not able to see open space in front of her. Both could be a real issue if and when you even need to trailer her somewhere.


Is it possible that when you went to buy the horse, to try her out, she was drugged? and that's why she cross tied without issue?
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post #14 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
What's interesting is that you say this horse is fine in cross ties, but not straight tied, with any kind of barrier in front of her.

A horse that panics being tied will usually be equally as panic stricken in cross ties, if not more so.


This is either an issue of her not knowing how to give to pressure, or her being claustrophobic if not able to see open space in front of her. Both could be a real issue if and when you even need to trailer her somewhere.


Is it possible that when you went to buy the horse, to try her out, she was drugged? and that's why she cross tied without issue?
Thatís very true
Itís normally the case that a horse that ties to a single point wonít cross tie because the headís more restricted.
I would think that she must have travelled to the current yard so I wonder how that went?

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post #15 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 11:22 AM
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I quickly read through all the comments...
May have missed...

The horse panics and pulls back when facing a wall and tied...
Why can't you face her outward, butt to the wall and then tie or cross-tie her?

We used to have a horse exactly like this where I used to work...
Faced him so he could see down the aisle butt to the wall, one time of pulling back and hitting that wall cured him of that habit in the barn.
We did not tie him any other spot of a 100' long aisle either...knowing his issue we just used what made him quiet to stand...no more issue.
Our wash stalls also had "walls/barriers" and he was turned facing out when bathed...no issue.
When we were at shows none of our horses {English H/J} were ever tied to the van...all were either hand held or stalled.
When hand held, the handler is a quieting influence and also moves with the horse reducing the pull-back mechanism.

Why can't you face her outward, butt to the wall ?
If she were to "panic" going backward as is her norm, she would run square into the wall and hitting that is then going to shoot her forward.
Not many rear up when going forward, they either stop and think or if truly freaking...fight and break loose..
Most though just stop at forward pressure exerted to their nose like bring bridled and ridden teaches them.

Now going to read more closely each previous contribution...
...
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post #16 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 11:30 AM
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It sounds like there is more than one issue going on with her. Being able to see must be important to her, so standing with a wall in front of her can be very stressful. This is actually a common problem.

The easiest way to have a horse learn to give to the pressure when tied is to use something with give in it. We used to use a innertube from a tire and tie it in the middle so the horse doesn't have anything solid to brace against, and the pressure naturally eases as they move forward.

Now many companies make bungie cord leads/ties so those are easier to use.

If I were retraining her, I would start someplace she feels safe, like her stall, and work on training her to stand tied there (with the bungie rope). When she starts backing up, encourage her to move forward to ease the pressure.

The other thing I would try, along with the bungie lead, is hanging up a hay bag where she is tied, so it becomes a more pleasant experience. Also lots of attention and treats for good behavior.

IMO most horses want to be good, but they can sometimes be confused as to what we are asking of them. Breaking things down into steps, by practicing "tying" at several different locations, can really help them to understand what one expects.

Thus once she is comfortable being tied in the stall and understands how the bungie works, then can go around the different areas on the property and just spend a few days "practicing tying". Don't ride or tack up or anything beside tying up, grooming, and attempting to walk short distances away, and then return again. Focus on making tying up a pleasant, relaxing time that you two share together.
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post #17 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post


The horse panics and pulls back when facing a wall and tied...
[I]Why can't you face her outward, butt to the wall and then tie or cross-tie her?
...
I think the OP said that on the yard sheís keeping the horse on they donít have cross ties and that would be the only way to tie a horse where itís head isnít at the wall.
I think I noticed that the OP is based in the UK where cross ties arenít the Ďnormí and most horses are either tied to a ring attached to a wall in their stable or outside to a ring attached to a wall, usually on the exterior of their stable.
The horse must have come from someone who had an American type barn with an aisle where cross ties are more commonly used but not so typical of a UK yard.
Iíd never seen cross ties before I came here.
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post #18 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I think the OP said that on the yard sheís keeping the horse on they donít have cross ties and that would be the only way to tie a horse where itís head isnít at the wall.
I think I noticed that the OP is based in the UK where cross ties arenít the Ďnormí and most horses are either tied to a ring attached to a wall in their stable or outside to a ring attached to a wall, usually on the exterior of their stable..
The basic idea still works...
Position the horse facing out...
If the tie is in a stall, face the horse toward the door, face out of a corner...
The butt is what is closest to the wall so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
The idea is handler is out of the line of trouble and the horse disciplines itself...
If you have a wall you somehow have a corner...use it to your advantage.

Really?
No cross-ties in UK?
Not even "in the stall" a setup of ties?
Wow..
...

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post #19 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitaAnne View Post
It sounds like there is more than one issue going on with her. Being able to see must be important to her, so standing with a wall in front of her can be very stressful. This is actually a common problem.

The easiest way to have a horse learn to give to the pressure when tied is to use something with give in it. We used to use a innertube from a tire and tie it in the middle so the horse doesn't have anything solid to brace against, and the pressure naturally eases as they move forward.

Now many companies make bungie cord leads/ties so those are easier to use.

If I were retraining her, I would start someplace she feels safe, like her stall, and work on training her to stand tied there (with the bungie rope). When she starts backing up, encourage her to move forward to ease the pressure.

The other thing I would try, along with the bungie lead, is hanging up a hay bag where she is tied, so it becomes a more pleasant experience. Also lots of attention and treats for good behavior.

IMO most horses want to be good, but they can sometimes be confused as to what we are asking of them. Breaking things down into steps, by practicing "tying" at several different locations, can really help them to understand what one expects.

Thus once she is comfortable being tied in the stall and understands how the bungie works, then can go around the different areas on the property and just spend a few days "practicing tying". Don't ride or tack up or anything beside tying up, grooming, and attempting to walk short distances away, and then return again. Focus on making tying up a pleasant, relaxing time that you two share together.



I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne , but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.


I mean, a material like a bungie cord, or inner tube type thing, that has 'give' in it, also has 'take' in it. So, when the horse pulls back, it gives , some, but as soon as the horse comes off of that, and moves forward a bit, the material then 'takes' up the slack by its rebound property. So, it would seem that the signal of "freedom is in giving to the rope" would be less instant, and less noticeable than a plain rope (which as soon as the hrose steps forward, does NOT take up any of the slack created by even the minutest forward 'give' of the horse).
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post #20 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post
so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
The idea is handler is out of the line of trouble and the horse disciplines itself...
I think this could be effective IF the horse isn't really reacting in fear - as I & SilverMaple mentioned with 'the long rope method'. If the horse were actually afraid though, panicking, just putting the horse in that scary situation & 'disciplining' (punishing) in whatever way may very well just make its fear worse. And what about when you want to take the horse in a trailer or somewhere without a corner or such to face the horse out of? I'd personally rather take the time to teach them to stand confidently tied anywhere.

Quote:
Really?
No cross-ties in UK?
Even working at big show outfits I don't recall ever seeing x-ties here. Only at the racetrack 'tie stalls' when I used to ride track work have I seen them.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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