Horse doesn't like being tied up? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 07:18 PM
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The horse I ride most of the time does NOT tie well. She will break snaps and cross ties just because she can. She's old, it's a hard-wired habit by now, and no one has been able to fix it. However...

One thing very few people in the horse world seem to be taught is the fact that it's possible to almost never have to actually tie a horse. Maybe it sounds crazy, but... it's true!

It's generally a bad idea to tie a horse solid for the farrier or the vet anyhow, especially one that's anxious. Better to be there and hold the lead.

Tacking up? Pull the end of the lead through the top ring of one of the cross ties, but don't knot it.

Tying at a post? Loop the rope around the post once, then twist the end of the lead rope a few times back over itself for a bit of friction, but so that it will still slide loose if necessary.

Detangling a mane or tail? Let them graze while you're at it and toss the lead rope over their back where you can reach for it quickly if they try to move off.

Are there circumstances where you MUST tie a horse solid? Yeah, but they're nowhere near as common as you might think.
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post #22 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne , but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.


I mean, a material like a bungie cord, or inner tube type thing, that has 'give' in it, also has 'take' in it. So, when the horse pulls back, it gives , some, but as soon as the horse comes off of that, and moves forward a bit, the material then 'takes' up the slack by its rebound property. So, it would seem that the signal of "freedom is in giving to the rope" would be less instant, and less noticeable than a plain rope (which as soon as the hrose steps forward, does NOT take up any of the slack created by even the minutest forward 'give' of the horse).
This is a good question. The way a bungie works is a mater of physics or one could say strength of materials.

First lets consider a horse that is tied with a regular lead rope. There is no give in it, and when a horse sets back on it and reaches the end of the rope, a small jerk of the head when the rope is fully extended will break the hardware on any halter. Horses are strong and have a lot of power.

This then, is why rope halters without any hardware can become so dangerous. If a horse is tied with an unbreakable halter, the horse could easily become choked if the rope tightens too much. The halter would need to be cut off the horse.

The other thing that can happen is the horse can suffer damage to the neck, including breaks, if the horse goes into full blown panic mode and continues to fight.

A bungie cord stretches, and a horse can't set back on one because it will not become fixed like a regular rope. The farther a bungie cord is stretched, the more resistance one feels, and the pull to return is great.


Thus as the horse pulls back, the bungie gives but does not put a fixed pressure on the poll. The horse doesn't reach that point of stopping, but the pressure continues to increase. If the handler encourages the horse to step forward, the pressure lessens. The horse is instantly rewarded for walking forward by a lessoning or complete release of pressure.


One must not tie the bungie lead so tight that there is a constant pressure. The horse should have no pressure on the poll when standing in the correct place.


It also helps to tie them up higher than the horse's head, as it is harder for them to pull back. The High-tie system for trailers works this way.


I always use bungies to tie in the trailer, so the horses can shift if needed.
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post #23 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne , but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.
Yes, I agree, to some extent, I think your way of seeing it is right Tiny. I think any form of punishment, if the horse is truly reacting in fear, is likely to make matters worse. Especially something like a bungee that doesn't let up the instant the horse does, but keeps 'pulling'. But I have seen this sort of thing - actually horses tied to inner car tyre tubes - used very successfully, when horses had learned to *calmly* pull back & get loose.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #24 of 37 Old 06-15-2019, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Yes, I agree, to some extent, I think your way of seeing it is right Tiny. I think any form of punishment, if the horse is truly reacting in fear, is likely to make matters worse. Especially something like a bungee that doesn't let up the instant the horse does, but keeps 'pulling'. But I have seen this sort of thing - actually horses tied to inner car tyre tubes - used very successfully, when horses had learned to *calmly* pull back & get loose.
I find it hard to understand your reasoning if as you state you have seen this practice used very successfully.

Having a bungie cord stretch is in no way a punishment, it is the opposite of punishment. The horse is not stopped in his backwards movement due to the elasticity.

I had a mare, TB/Appy cross that could snap a triple thick halter before you could take three steps towards her! Very dangerous when metal buckles come flying at a person...the minute she was free, she relaxed.
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post #25 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 04:20 AM
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^I don't believe it's a good move to punish/discipline/put further pressure on(whatever you want to call it or specifically use) a fear reaction. I don't think it's fair or generally effective. And the horse is effectively already being 'punished' by being in that situation. The exception would be in 'emergency' type situations, when the horse's attitude takes low second place to doing whatever is necessary for safety - of horse or handler. So the diff in successful use, IME has been when a horse isn't actually or significantly afraid of the situation - he's not pulling out of fear of being trapped.

And perhaps it was because I was thinking of 'punishment' in behavioural terms, not whacking the horse or whatever, but just anything that is an undesirable stimuli to a horse. Eg. in this case, putting significant pressure on the lead. Esp when, due to elasticity, that pressure will not cease the moment the horse stops pulling back - they have to not only stop pulling but come forward before they 'release' the pressure.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #26 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
^I don't believe it's a good move to punish/discipline/put further pressure on(whatever you want to call it or specifically use) a fear reaction. I don't think it's fair or generally effective. And the horse is effectively already being 'punished' by being in that situation. The exception would be in 'emergency' type situations, when the horse's attitude takes low second place to doing whatever is necessary for safety - of horse or handler. So the diff in successful use, IME has been when a horse isn't actually or significantly afraid of the situation - he's not pulling out of fear of being trapped.

And perhaps it was because I was thinking of 'punishment' in behavioural terms, not whacking the horse or whatever, but just anything that is an undesirable stimuli to a horse. Eg. in this case, putting significant pressure on the lead. Esp when, due to elasticity, that pressure will not cease the moment the horse stops pulling back - they have to not only stop pulling but come forward before they 'release' the pressure.
Just a case of terminology then. I consider it much less restrictive than hitting the end of a fixed object. Nor do I consider it a punishment, no more than learning to be tied could be a punishment. Its just a different type of lead rope...

If you consider training that teaches the horse to release from pressure a punishment, then nearly everything we do with a horse would be punishment.

Horses used to be tied to a pole in the ground, outside, with the tire inner tube attached. They were left to figure it out for themselves, and most never had a problem after that being tied. It was the first step of saddle training. I prefer standing right next to the horse and teaching him what to do, for the horse's safety.


The horse quickly learns to step forward, so has a lot of control over the situation. Anytime we turn the control over to the horse, the horse has the opportunity to make their own decisions, which is a confidence booster.


IMO "tying" the horse to one of those rings that allow the rope to just slip though is just teaching the horse how to break free. Not something I want to teach my horse!

Horses do not like pressure on their poll, and naturally will fight to resist it, but giving to the pressure is something that they need to learn how to do.

I've been riding/working with horses for almost 50 years now, and have seen a lot of training methods come and go. Some methods I am still using from back when I was first learning to drive and ride from a very experienced older man. Back then we loaded the horses in the back of a truck to take them to the fair. I and my friend rode back there, standing up, with them


As I frequently say, everyone has their own methods that work for them, and the OP will need to learn her way around all the advice to discover what works for her and her horse.

If I didn't think this method would help her, I wouldn't have mentioned it. But calling tying up a horse with a different type of lead a "punishment" may lead her to not try something that might help her.


Some old-timey methods are still relevant today...
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Last edited by AnitaAnne; 06-16-2019 at 08:09 AM.
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post #27 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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@tinyliny Hello!

It is very odd because, once she is loaded onto a trailer and is settled, she is completely fine. She does tend to like a bit of lax in the lead rope so that she is able to move her head and look behind her, but we do the exact same thing when she's in front of a wall and she simply freaks out.

We have considered that she may have either been drugged or very starved when we first got her - which resulted in such a dramatic character change when we got her. I say this because, when we first saw her, she was rather underweight and wasn't phased by anything. Whether it was water being sprayed onto her or her being cross tied. However, we bring her to our stables and after a week or two of proper, regular feeding and plenty of grass, she suddenly switched and became a lot more energetic. (We have made sure her food is as low sugar as possible so we feel as though it is simply a case of that she wasn't fed properly when we got her.)

We are trying her on a new supplement which is meant to help a nervy or anxious horse (because she paces at the fence line when she has her herd with her.) So i am hoping this make ease back the fear she feels when she thinks that she is completely trapped. It is odd that she is fine when someone holds her facing the wall, but hates being tied to the metal ring in the wall.


Thank you x
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post #28 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Hello @SteadyOn

I do understand where you're coming from and, because my mum and I work as team on most things, we rarely find the need to actually tie Sophie (the horse) up. However, my main concern is what will happen if we do need to somehow tie her up but are unable to.

For example, if my mum wants to go to a show but I'm injured so she has to go by herself...because Sophie despises being tied up, my mother would struggle to tack up, get ready and do everything that needs to be done for a show. The same could be said for me if I wanted to go somewhere by myself.

I suppose I would simply like to have the knowledge that I am able to tie sophie up if need be, and that I don't always need to rely on someone holding onto her whenever we go out, have the farrier, have to bathe her ect.

Thank you x
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post #29 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post
The basic idea still works...
Position the horse facing out...
If the tie is in a stall, face the horse toward the door, face out of a corner...
The butt is what is closest to the wall so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
The idea is handler is out of the line of trouble and the horse disciplines itself...
If you have a wall you somehow have a corner...use it to your advantage.

Really?
No cross-ties in UK?
Not even "in the stall" a setup of ties?
Wow..
...
Some people have cross ties, you might see them in yards that have got American style barns, though we had an American style barn at one place where we lived and still tied the horses to a ring on the outside wall of their stables.
The OP could put a tie ring close to the door so the horse could see out. It would have to be trained to stand away from the door and not right up to it and not crowd the door every time the carrier went in and out to his mobile forge.
Not all farriers like to shoe in a stable as the light isn’t very good in some of them

I do think that horses who’ve learnt to break away are better off tied in a confined space where they can’t go far and their efforts just get them taken very quickly, straight back to where they were.
If this horse is stabled regularly then she really should be well used to looking at a wall. I would think that either something bad (in her opinion) has been done to her when she was tied or she was drugged on the dealers yard and wouldn’t cross tie either now.
I think I’d be trying to contact her previous owner (before the dealer) and talk to them about her. That should be easily done as previous owners will be recorded on her passport.

Just winging it is not a plan
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post #30 of 37 Old 06-16-2019, 02:56 PM
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As I said, I am not arguing that it WORKS, because you are not the only one who says it does. And your below description of the gradual application of flexible pressure onto the head as the horse begins to pull back may be the secret. Most likely it is, not the release offered by the stretchy material.



Oh, and the use of a handler, to encourage the horse to step forward off the pressure, is the very thing I would use to help a horse that has set back hard against a rope halter or strong nylon/leather one.





Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitaAnne View Post
This is a good question. The way a bungie works is a mater of physics or one could say strength of materials.

First lets consider a horse that is tied with a regular lead rope. There is no give in it, and when a horse sets back on it and reaches the end of the rope, a small jerk of the head when the rope is fully extended will break the hardware on any halter. Horses are strong and have a lot of power.

This then, is why rope halters without any hardware can become so dangerous. If a horse is tied with an unbreakable halter, the horse could easily become choked if the rope tightens too much. The halter would need to be cut off the horse.

The other thing that can happen is the horse can suffer damage to the neck, including breaks, if the horse goes into full blown panic mode and continues to fight.

A bungie cord stretches, and a horse can't set back on one because it will not become fixed like a regular rope. The farther a bungie cord is stretched, the more resistance one feels, and the pull to return is great.


Thus as the horse pulls back, the bungie gives but does not put a fixed pressure on the poll. The horse doesn't reach that point of stopping, but the pressure continues to increase. If the handler encourages the horse to step forward, the pressure lessens. The horse is instantly rewarded for walking forward by a lessoning or complete release of pressure.


One must not tie the bungie lead so tight that there is a constant pressure. The horse should have no pressure on the poll when standing in the correct place.


It also helps to tie them up higher than the horse's head, as it is harder for them to pull back. The High-tie system for trailers works this way.


I always use bungies to tie in the trailer, so the horses can shift if needed.
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