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post #51 of 119 Old 05-02-2019, 10:54 PM
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I'm seeing a few things...in no particular order...
First off you are scared to death of this horse and it shows...
Not only shows but the horse is totally aware of it and is capitalizing on it with you.
Nit picky but when you attach your saddle girth you do the off-side, right side first, that way your final adjustments are done from the left...
English horses are taught tacking up practices are left side oriented...yes, small things like this can set off sensitive animals.
However, the horse continually looks back at his belly, his side and to me is trying to tell you something is bothering him...what it is I don't know but horse body language speaks volumes.
I understand you were trying to show a explosion...what I saw was a horse impatient and you dragging your heels and taking a ridiculous amount of time...
The longer you took the more anxious he became...he looked for you for reassurance repeatedly and you did not give it to him...
He throws his head because when you approach him hand held high, palm flat to his face he sees that as a strike and threat of a smack...yes, he is going to react.
Instead try approaching him from near his muzzle, under his lower jawbone and palm extended upward so he can scent your hand...
When you go to touch him, touch him with gentle, firm kindness..talk to him. Use your voice...if nervous, quietly sing...yes, sing. It is a stress reliever even though you not realize it.
You feed him your nerves and insecurity repeatedly with how you approach him.
The hind leg strike-out is either a pain reaction or impatience but it is a bad habit happening.
I would be figuring a way to get that habit stopped before he connects with you and shatters your bones.
I'm hoping that when you are actually just riding, you prepare first...bring all your tack and supplies to where he will be cross-tied first, then get the horse.
Clean and tack him and get going...not hide out, not procrastinate...get tacked and get it going, period. Some horses do not have great patience and get very agitated with what this just showed.
So...when you use to ride Bee did you always use your saddle or did you use the previous owners tack?
Being this is a new issue since you have taken ownership my mind keeps going to your saddle and if there is a problem with it and it really bothers Bee...
He didn't start to stress greatly till you put saddle cloth and saddle sitting on his spine...
Once you dared to attach a girth his belly kicks got pointed in strike range of his belly underside...and lashing out behind.
I did not see a blow-up or pull back...nothing.
I saw agitation and anxiety in his body language...he wiggled, he moved...he did not pull-back once, not even attempted it.
I saw trepidation and scared in your body language too...
You are both feeding off of each other.
This is a lot of horse, he's big and he's a high strung animal you are dealing with.
You don't have the experience to deal with this alone...
Again, your support network is lacking and this is where you need support, watching educated eyes to help you and don't have them available...so you move along alone unguided creating issue where there wasn't one but now is.
That trainer person working with Chase...can you have them work with Bee and you observe and see how they do, when they do and what is different from what you do?
I will guarantee you a experienced rider and handler would not be having such issues as you...
There is a underlying quiet authority that comes from handling many horses of various temperaments...you have not had exposure to any high-strung horses before and now are over-faced...it shows.
Hands-on and some serious tutelage are needed for you to handle Bee's attitude and behaviors...
You need to get riding exposure with a good riding instructor, in a boarding/lesson barn where you can also be watched and have corrected some of the bad habits you've been allowed or more likely not taught proper ways of doing things ever before.
It matters and it means a difference in what you now have and what Bee was when you got him...
My words are not meant to be cruel but I see what others may not or are afraid to say...
Bee is a big horse with attitude of a Thoroughbred of not much patience for those inexperienced.
He has got your number and is now using that to his advantage.
I would though be getting him checked by the vet to make sure he is not ailing from something, get your saddle truly checked out by a saddler for worn, loose or broken parts as I saw so much once the saddle arrived so did the problems magnify...there is a correlation between those things and some others touched upon.
I'm so sorry about your fingers...you learned a valuable lesson and got away light with only breaking them and not amputating them...
Your fingers will hurt and ache for a few weeks...a reminder to be watchful of where you put your body parts with any animal.

...
jmo...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #52 of 119 Old 05-02-2019, 11:27 PM
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Your scared of your horse your jumpy and making him jumpy. You tiptoe around making horse even more nervous. You set saddle pad on and take a very long time to put saddle on.

Then get saddle on to have horse kicking with hinds you dinking around being jumpy. If horse would of pulled back saddle not cinched up it would of come off further scarring horse and escalating the pulling back.

Very obvious your in over your head with this horse. You're fueling the fire it shows in the video horse needs a confident handler not a scared one.

He should be tied with the clip or blocker tie ring. Honestly I think you being nervous/ jumpy is the cause of horse doing what he does.
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Last edited by rambo99; 05-02-2019 at 11:37 PM.
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post #53 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 12:03 AM
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I get anxiety. I really, really do.

Salty reflects my anxiety. When I am tense and defensive, Salty gets fidgety, tense and defensive. He started being relaxed and easy to tack up when I started relaxing, breathing, being affectionate and taking my time.

I know 100% how easy this sounds and how hard it is to actually do.

Can you choose a different place to tack up? Spend time grooming and then just putting him up? Work on relaxing your own tension and breathing and giving him some reassurance? Spend some non-demanding time just hanging out near him without an agenda?

Time. Understanding that you're both nervous and tense. Small steps and quitting while you're ahead. Little wins instead of forcing things.

Some horses are trusting and bond right away, some take a lot of time, it has taken almost a year for me and Salty to relax and quit making each other crazy. Hang in there!
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post #54 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 03:58 AM
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OK, so what IS with the kicking & stomping? He's a very unhappy camper!

He's definitely on edge, so any little thing could set him off. And you have tied him, again. A situation that you know to result in panic. I just don't get why you keep doing this? You then put the saddle on then leave him alone with it not girthed up - then attach the girth but walk & stand around without doing it up. Considering he is already on edge, already had lots of 'practice' in panicking when tied, what do you suppose would happen if that saddle fell off him? Especially when you're standing around on the off side of where it's most likely to land?? Please be more mindful of his & your own safety!

I gather the 'baby talking' we can hear is you, trying to calm him down? That is something that people commonly do, but in effect, all you're doing is associating your voice & that tone with a stressful situation. That means your voice is then associated with stress even in normal situations. So it's best not to say anything really. At one point, I hear someone tell someone to 'cut it out!' or such. If it was you at the horse, regardless whether it's valid or not, to tell him off for something once, in the middle of a long session is not going to be understood or fair. You need to be consistent with horses. Oh and I know a lot of people slap their horses as a kind of 'praise' but this is not very helpful either. Horses generally don't like it, and at best they're desensitised to enduring it.

As for 'double haltering' I don't know why you're doing that, but do not tie firm in a rope halter! They're thin, strong and can very easily, seriously hurt a horse that pulls back hard! As for your mistake of getting fingers in the way doing up the lead, yeah, this is easily done if you're not being careful - I know someone who popped his thumb right off, when it got caught in a loop of rope & the horse took off. Always keep in mind other bits of your body that can get tangled when leading/dealing with horses, and be mindful of your safety in everything you do.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #55 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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I wanted to get the tie ring. However the BO said that she doesn't think we should. Its not necessarily that I have to listen to what she says, but it is her barn and I can't go drilling things into it if she doesn't want me to. There is no other place for me to tack up because in my pasture he would easily pull down anything I tied him to.

My mom however told me that she thinks we should get the tie ring anyways. Which I agree with. I'll explain to the BO when I see her tomorrow.

The reason the girth saddle was on and the girth was attached for so long without me finishing it was because the way he was standing was sideways, and if he went off again then he would've straightened out and ran me over. Which is what I was explaining to my dad in the video, you can hear me say, "I don't want to do this because he could run me over.... But I have to do it anyways." Or something along those lines.

The reason for the double halters was because when he does it we can't let him get away with breaking loose. This way he remains tied up when it happens.

I had to tie him up. If he doesn't get ridden consistently then he'll buck and develop other bad habits.

Also, yes, I am afraid of him, very afraid. I tried to act confident when we he was tied in the beginning, but after his first couple of freakouts I get nervous and it shows. He's big. Very big. and Very strong. And getting run over is something I would like to avoid.

As for saddle fit, this is the same saddle I rode him in for the past two years and he's never had problems with it before. But I am getting a custom saddle for Chase after months of saving up so when the fitter comes out I'll ask him to take a look at him too.

I'll order the tie blocker ring. Hopefully it works.
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post #56 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamerR View Post
As for saddle fit, this is the same saddle I rode him in for the past two years and he's never had problems with it before. But I am getting a custom saddle for Chase after months of saving up so when the fitter comes out I'll ask him to take a look at him too.
Big difference in riding the horse once or twice a week and riding near every day if there is a problem with fit or saddle tree itself.
And no, it might not bother Chase nor is Chase as sensitive as this horse it seems...
All those things matter and matter huge.

I know you've heard this before and I don't want to start a parade of nasty here...
If you are afraid of him...sell him.
He's a nice horse.
He deserves someone that can work with him to his full potential all the time...
Right now and if honest, from the very beginning you have struggled riding this horse.
Now afraid you don't enjoy having to ride him or spend time with him.
Sell him before he hurts you cause you are seriously headed that direction...broken bones or worse!
Sell him...yes, I mean that.
Selling would allow you to concentrate on Chase, a work in progress and a horse you find fun to ride, fun to be with and not thinking you are afraid of Chase...
You're working together as a team...
Your "team" with Bee doesn't exist and direction your headed never will being bluntly honest.
For Bee...truly consider selling him.
Think of having one horse to concentrate all your energies to and what that means for both of you in progressing what you learn, can apply and practice...
It also will nearly halve your financial responsibilities of food, farrier and vet...so more $$ to do that trailer thing, the showing thing you so want and enjoy!!
...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #57 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 10:14 AM
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I could be wrong, but any chance he may have ulcers? My mare is being treated for ulcers, & she wasn't as bad, but he's showing some signs very similar to her. He looks very uncomfortable. While yes, there may be flies, the way he's cowkicking especially after the saddle is on tells me he may be in pain...just not happy.

It's not easy, but you can't act like you're afraid. He will sense that. Praise him when he relaxes. Even if he relaxes for 5 seconds, it's something - praise. Be confident. Little wins.

I wouldn't have tacked him up if he was acting that way, moving all around. I'm surprised honestly that the saddle didn't fall off (which I'm sure would've freaked him out even more). It looks like you're almost afraid to even go near him when you're saddling him up...not helping the situation at all. It's clear he senses that you are afraid or nervous.

It's almost like you are walking on eggshells in the video. You have to be assertive. Don't be afraid of him. Horses pick up on EVERYTHING. I'm sure you being nervous did not make it any better. You need to be confident.

Have you ordered anything? Any of the tie rings etc? We've suggested these again & again...you don't seem to be taking any of the advice, yet coming back for more help. He is totally feeding off of your energy. It's only getting worse, unless you do something about it.
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post #58 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=horselovinguy;1970715081]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamerR View Post
I know you've heard this before and I don't want to start a parade of nasty here...
If you are afraid of him...sell him.
He's a nice horse.
He deserves someone that can work with him to his full potential all the time...
Right now and if honest, from the very beginning you have struggled riding this horse.
Now afraid you don't enjoy having to ride him or spend time with him.
Sell him before he hurts you cause you are seriously headed that direction...broken bones or worse!
Sell him...yes, I mean that.
Selling would allow you to concentrate on Chase, a work in progress and a horse you find fun to ride, fun to be with and not thinking you are afraid of Chase...
You're working together as a team...
Your "team" with Bee doesn't exist and direction your headed never will being bluntly honest.
For Bee...truly consider selling him.
Think of having one horse to concentrate all your energies to and what that means for both of you in progressing what you learn, can apply and practice...
It also will nearly halve your financial responsibilities of food, farrier and vet...so more $$ to do that trailer thing, the showing thing you so want and enjoy!! <img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" />
<img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/runninghorse2.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Runninghorse2" class="inlineimg" />...
I’m sorry but I can’t even process the thought of selling him. He could end up in a bad situation, or something could happen to him and I just can’t deal with that. I’ve known him for so long, and my other trainer said she wanted him to go somewhere that she could come visit and wanted him to be with someone she knows.

Everyone said the same thing about Chase, but we got through it together and he’s doing amazing. Also him and Chase are bonded and I can’t take them away from each other.

I will find a solution. I will figure this out and he will get back to being the Bee I know and love.
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post #59 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 10:21 AM
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I truly am curious about your answer to the following questions....

Is he afraid of being tied?

If you tie him next to another horse and walk away, will he stand quietly?

If you tie him in another area, does the behavior change?

If someone else handles him, is the behavior the same?

If he's tied by himself without being groomed and tacked, does he stand quietly, or can he relax?

If someone stood and held his leadrope while you're tacking up, would he still be anxious?

Is he afraid of being tied, or afraid of being tacked, or dreading being ridden, or insecure about being separated from other horses, or are you the variable that is making him nervous?

Why is he stamping, kicking and violently swishing his tail? This is not normal pull back or fear behavior -- it is more indicative of discomfort or anticipation of discomfort. Are you using a spray that stings his skin? Is there a low level of electricity leaking into the damp ground right in that spot? Does his coat hold static that makes him uncomfortable?

Try to think about the problem in a systematic, scientific manner and try to isolate and eliminate variables that contribute to the behavior.

I ask questions because I used to lease a horse with a pull back problem after a loose horse ran into him and seriously injured him while he was tied at a rodeo. He was not afraid of being tied. He was not afraid of other horses acting up. He was afraid of being tied while another horse was acting up and not being able to get away. The solution was to tie him by loose wrapping his leadrope so if he pulled back, he could get loose. He wouldnt take off, he'd just look sheepish and wait to be retied.

Do you have a round pen? Can you do some groundwork with this horse and teach him some ground manners? Teach him to ground tie!!!! It ain't rocket science -- 3 of our 4 horses stand like a statue when left untied when tacked. The other (Salty) doesn't ground tie because he has a lot of past liberty training and thinks he should stroll along with me.

Not standing tied and not leading safely and quietly is a big hole in a horse's training -- train him to relax, be patient and stand tied! This is such a valuable skill in the western world -- I don't understand why your trainer is not helping you train your horses to do this. Watch some natural horsemanship videos and do some groundwork to build some trust and partnership -- it's not all about throwing a saddle on and soaring over jumps.

I also noticed that he looked to you for reassurance multiple times and you did not provide any. There were multiple times when he looked right at you and paused, when you could have stopped and approached him and asked him to relax and drop his head and breathe and given him some soft words of reassurance and pets, but you didn't see the opportunity. He's looking for a partner and can't find one. Slow down and take time to SEE your horse and respond to his worries.

I get being untrusting due to being hurt by a horse. Salty has hurt me and it sucks. It's hard to get past, but you are a big part of the equation and need to address your own fear, as it's contributing to the problem.
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post #60 of 119 Old 05-03-2019, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedar & Salty View Post
I truly am curious about your answer to the following questions....

Is he afraid of being tied?

If you tie him next to another horse and walk away, will he stand quietly?

If you tie him in another area, does the behavior change?

If someone else handles him, is the behavior the same?

If he's tied by himself without being groomed and tacked, does he stand quietly, or can he relax?

If someone stood and held his leadrope while you're tacking up, would he still be anxious?

Is he afraid of being tied, or afraid of being tacked, or dreading being ridden, or insecure about being separated from other horses, or are you the variable that is making him nervous?

Why is he stamping, kicking and violently swishing his tail? This is not normal pull back or fear behavior -- it is more indicative of discomfort or anticipation of discomfort. Are you using a spray that stings his skin? Is there a low level of electricity leaking into the damp ground right in that spot? Does his coat hold static that makes him uncomfortable?

Try to think about the problem in a systematic, scientific manner and try to isolate and eliminate variables that contribute to the behavior.

I ask questions because I used to lease a horse with a pull back problem after a loose horse ran into him and seriously injured him while he was tied at a rodeo. He was not afraid of being tied. He was not afraid of other horses acting up. He was afraid of being tied while another horse was acting up and not being able to get away. The solution was to tie him by loose wrapping his leadrope so if he pulled back, he could get loose. He wouldnt take off, he'd just look sheepish and wait to be retied.

Do you have a round pen? Can you do some groundwork with this horse and teach him some ground manners? Teach him to ground tie!!!! It ain't rocket science -- 3 of our 4 horses stand like a statue when left untied when tacked. The other (Salty) doesn't ground tie because he has a lot of past liberty training and thinks he should stroll along with me.

Not standing tied and not leading safely and quietly is a big hole in a horse's training -- train him to relax, be patient and stand tied! This is such a valuable skill in the western world -- I don't understand why your trainer is not helping you train your horses to do this. Watch some natural horsemanship videos and do some groundwork to build some trust and partnership -- it's not all about throwing a saddle on and soaring over jumps.

I also noticed that he looked to you for reassurance multiple times and you did not provide any. There were multiple times when he looked right at you and paused, when you could have stopped and approached him and asked him to relax and drop his head and breathe and given him some soft words of reassurance and pets, but you didn't see the opportunity. He's looking for a partner and can't find one. Slow down and take time to SEE your horse and respond to his worries.

I get being untrusting due to being hurt by a horse. Salty has hurt me and it sucks. It's hard to get past, but you are a big part of the equation and need to address your own fear, as it's contributing to the problem.
I’m guessing he is afraid of being tied based on his behavior.

Chase was standing on the crossties about 10 feet away from him and he still does it.
I
have tied him all over the barn and barn yard and he still does it.

He has done it with me, the girl I let ride him, and the BO.

If he’s just standing there doing nothing he’s normally fine, yesterday the first blowup happened after I started brushing him, however he was always sassy about tacking up, even before I got him.

I tried having someone stand and hold the lead rope and he did it anyways.

I figured he was kicking and stomping due to flies since I was out of fly spray (picked some up this morning)
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