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how ahorse thinks-evidence based horsemanship

1K views 10 replies 4 participants last post by  Reiningcatsanddogs 
#1 ·
While many attempt to just extrapolate human brain function to horses, or use Grandin, since she is autistic, as an expert, there is some actual scientific documentation on the Intellectual equine. The field is young, as compared to dogs, not that much study has been done on the horse, far as brain function Dr Stephen Peters,, who has made it his life's work to study the brain, as a board certified neuropsycholgist, teamed up with Martin Black, a lifetime horseman, who worked with some of the best, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Gene lewis,Tom Marvel, his grandfather Albert Black and uncle Paul Black
Together they formed Evidence-Based Horsemanship


Horses have two progressive layers to their brains, while humans have three
The first layer(reptilian, consisting of the brain stem and cerebellum), is concerned with survival, digestion,reproduction, breathing, circulation and
the 'flight or fight instinct

The second layer, the limbic system, involves emotion and memory and concerns itself with primitive activities related to sex, food and bonding
The second layer is also connected to agreeable and disagreeable experiences

The third layer, which horses don't have is the neocortex, and language , speech and writing are all possible in the human because
of this layer
The human brain can be compared to the horse's brain as functioning the same at the first two levels. Higher functioning areas of the brain do not exist for the horse
Anyway, here are some links and perhaps books to read on the subject of horses and intellect

Evidence-Based Horsemanship
 
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#2 ·
I believe this book, from which this introduction is from, might answer some of the training debates going on here

ABOUT EVIDENCE-BASED HORSEMANSHIP

Evidence-Based Horsemanship combines science and the understanding of brain function with an empirical understanding of the subtleties of a horse's behaviors, reactions, and chemical states.Evidence- Based Horsemanship is based on the Scientist-Practitioner model it involves assessing and integrating scientific findings to inform decisions and create "best practices" in all areas of horse training and care based on empirical outcomes. (i.e., what "works"). Evidence-Based Horsemanship was developed out of a collaboration between renowned horseman, Martin Black and neuroscientist, Dr. Stephen Peters who felt that the public and their horses needed a source of "real information" gathered by observation, tested in the field and validated by science. This "real information" allows us to ask the question, "What does our current scientific knowledge of the horse, when applied and observed, show me about getting the best outcomes possible for me and the horse?"
 
#3 ·
background:

EBH would help disprove myths as well as help confirm and validate the empirical findings of people with deep understanding and expertise at observing/interpreting the subtlest signals from a horse, but who lacked a language to communicate their findings.

By profession, I am a Neuropsychologist and specialize in brain functioning. In training my own horses, I wanted a better understanding of the neurofunctioning of the horse's brain. I also became quite frustrated by hearing such things as, "The horse has two brains" or "The horse is trying to make a chump of you" or using a pop psychology test designed to identify management styles in humans to arrive at a personality type for your horse.

In actuality, the horse has one brain with two hemispheres which are well-connected by a structure called the corpus callosum. The horse brain is about the size of a large grapefruit and is proportionately 1/650 of their body weight (human brains have a 1/50 brain weight to body weight ratio). They have a large cerebellum for balance and smooth movement and most of the brain area is dedicated to motor and sensory functions.

They do not have a huge neocortex like humans so they are unable to purposely make fun of someone and return to share the joke with their pasture mates. Although they have personalities based on how they behave, it would be anthropomorphic to assign human personality traits to this animal. The temptation to want to believe that horses process things in the same way as humans may make us feel better but it is inaccurate, leads to false assumptions, and is often at the expense of the horse's welfare and well-being.

This article grew out of a meeting with Martin Black while attending the Legacy of Legends clinic in honor of the late Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. I had placed Ray Hunt and especially Tom Dorrance in the category of those experts who had special powers of observation when it came to reading the subtleties involved in human horse interaction/communication. Martin Black is a well-known horseman/clinician and fifth-generation cowboy who worked with and was influenced by both Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.


http://www.evidence-basedhorsemanship.com/about.php
 
#5 ·
Read the book over a year ago. Interesting, but no more so evidentiary than Zen Horse, Zen Mind written by a Harvard Educated Neurosurgeon and horse trainer Allan J Hamilton who takes quite a different view.
 
#6 ·
Well, Reinin, that just underlines how inexact this field of science is!
Also, once I saw Monty Roberts as a reference, any credibility went out the window for me.
Hoe much horse training can a neuro surgeon do anyways?

Dr Peter is a neuropycologist, thus I would think he is more qualified far as this subject
There is also the fact that his partner is Martin Black, someone who has trained hundreds of horses, and whose mentors were some of the greats, like Tom Dorance, Ray Hunt, and who worked with some of the best horsemen in Idaho, Oregon and Nevada.he trains horses in the Vaquero tradition. He is not a person who trains afew horses, but a person that has made his livehood working with, and training horses

Lets see the difference in qualifications

A neuropsychologist is a physiologist who specializes in understanding the relationship between the physical brain and behavior. The brain is extremely complex, and disorders within the brain or nervous system can alter behavior and cognitive function.



A neurosurgeon is a Medical Doctor or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine who has completed a five or six-year residency that focuses on the surgical treatment of patients with neurological conditions.


If I needed surgery, I would chose a neurosurgeon, and if I wanted to know how the brain works, I would chose a neuroscientist
 
#8 ·
Both neuropsychologists and neurosurgeons are neuroscientists... ;-)

I think your selling the neurosurgeons short here, Smilie. Many neuropsychology programs are done under the supervision of the neurosurgery department for one thing.* The neurosurgeons and neuropsychologists work hand-in-hand. For another, operating on the brain isn't as simple as operating on other parts of the body where you only focus on structure. Neurosurgeons have to know the behaviors as well as functions of each part of the brain in order to preserve those behaviors and functions while still eliminating or treating whatever disease process is present. At this point in medicine, it's not enough to just treat the disease while sacrificing all else (at least not in most cases), people expect to still have their same personality and functionality after surgery. No more lobotomies... ;-)

Additionally, you focused only on the 5-6 year residency (actually 6-8 years**) - that is after 4 years of undergraduate coursework in pre-med or other relevant coursework (psychology perhaps?) and usually 4 years of straight up medical school before focusing solely on one field. During medical school and early residency the students are put in rotations where they experience each major section of medicine including psychology (with an emphasis on neuropsychology perhaps). After all coursework and residency requirements are completed usually a year of internship is required before the newly minted neurosurgeon can start slicing into people's brains for fun. :D

A neuropsychologist has their undergraduate coursework (4 years or so) in psychology, followed by a masters in the same in 2 years, and finally their doctoral work along-side neurosurgeons (if they don't do the coursework online without any hands-on experience) for another 2-4 years.***

Working towards a medical degree or a doctorate doesn't exclude working towards the other. In fact, sometimes the coursework aligns and both advanced degrees can be attained without excessive hardship - especially since neuropsychology degrees can be attained online.

I'm sure neurosurgeons can train horses just as well as neuropsychologists can - it's not their full-time job. They can both work with a horse trainer and give their expert opinions based on what they know about the brain, it's functions, and relationship to behavior. They can also both have different opinions based on their training and their own personality as to which type of training works best,
Monty Roberts, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Harry Whitney, Tom Roberts, etc. Just as each of us can have our own opinions as to which is best based in our experiences, preferences, and personality.

*Neuropsychology Fellowship | Department of Neurosurgery | University of Colorado Denver
Department of Neurosurgery - Neuropsychology - Hartford Hospital, Connecticut
Neuropsychology - Neurology and Neurosurgery - Wake Forest Baptist, North Carolina

**How to Become a Neurosurgeon: Education and Career Roadmap

***How To Become Neuropsychologist | CareersinPsychology.org
 
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#7 ·
I think , a partnership like this, has to bring together some of the best, hands on, and an expert in that field which studies the workings of the brain, and its chemistry, and not just specialize in surgery of the brain, and train a few horses in their spare Time!

'Developing a "best practices" guide in horsemanship, leaving egos, hearsay and arguments aside to understand and manage horses in ways that bring out the best of the relationship. Renowned horseman and clinician Martin Black and neuroscientist Dr. Stephen Peters have written this groundbreaking work in a collaboration that grew out of a meeting while the authors were attending the Legacy of Legends clinic in honor of the late Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. Dr. Peters says, "Evidence-based horsemanship is an approach that continually evolves as our knowledge base grows." This slim, interesting and educational book delves into the horse's brain, senses, and autonomic nervous system to explain behavior; and provides descriptive photos as well. Glossary included. Forward by Randy Rieman.
 
#9 ·
BB, I did work in a teaching hospital, and do know when fields get very specialized, even within each field, there are those with more specific knowledge, while others have a broader general base
For instance, I have a general RT. I then specialized in haematology.
Within that specialty, I concentrated in coagulation/bleeding disorders, and in fact, setting up the coag lab at Foothills hospital
I did workups on patients with mystery bleeding disorders, using new technology and methods
So, no, if you spend a lot of time in the OR, you focus on new techniques in surgery, and will not be up to date as to in depth knowledge as someone more concentrated on the laboratory aspects of things
I then worked in Oncology, so again became very experienced in reading bone marrows, working with radio active tracers, special stains and other techniques, to identify that cancer at the cellular level, which in turn allowed to oncologist to use targeted chemotheraphy
We are also taking of a neuro surgeon, who trained a few horses on the side, versus a neuro scientist that is in pArnership with someone who had trained hundreds of horses, and with whose practciaL hands on experiences, he collaborates his academic observations with
Their conceptions are also still evolving, as new research data on this subject is being complied , by those working in the field of equine intelligence
 
#10 ·
To be honest, I did watch some of Hamiliton's Videos,including one where he goes into his book
Zen and spiritualism is not exactly something I buy into, although there are some basic established principles given, that are nothing new.
Soft eye, focusing ahead, having a horse tuned into your body language and state of mind-all not new.
I see a lot of round pen work, but nothing beyond that, and it does bother me, as to how that girl is leading a horse in a non safe manner- out behind her.
I think there is much more to be gained, by actually un locking the chemical working of the horse's brain, how they learn, and this can only be done by controlled double blind studies, set up in a way to make any evidence documented science, versus anecdotal evidence
 
#11 ·
You forgot one Smile...Cognitive Psychology ; Topics such as thinking, decision-making, problem-solving, learning, attention, memory, forgetting, and language acquisition are just a few of the practical applications of this science.

Cognitive psychology combines both the things learned by the neuropsychologist and the neurosurgeon, integrates it and puts it into practical use.
 
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