The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

This is how we train a fearless trail horse!

198K views 298 replies 164 participants last post by  DragonflyAzul 
#1 ·
It seems that every time I come to this site, there are 2 or 3 or even more questions about training a trail horse to go anywhere and everywhere the rider points its head. Since this is what we do for a living, I thought I would try to explain what it takes and how to go about it.

We have trained nothing but trail horses since we got too old and are in too poor health to train cow horses and reining horses any more. We always rode our cow horses out and they were perfect trail horses and we sold the horses that would not make competitive cow horses as trail horses for many years - about 35 or 49 years anyway. Now, that is all we can do.

It does not take age. We have had MANY 2 year olds that would go anywhere you pointed their heads. I have sold 3 year olds to novice riders that are still perfect trail horses 10 years later. [I got 2 e-mails just last week from people that bought horses 3-5 years ago and keep me up on their adventures. Both of those horses were 3 year olds. ]

'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider, but I have not had a problem making a good trail horse out of anything. I have made good trail horses out of many spoiled horses, but that takes a lot more skill and riding ability than what many people have. Obviously, the nicer the prospect and the better the attitude, the easier it is to make a nice horse for any purpose. We raise our own prospects for their trainability, good minds and easy going nature. We think novice riders should have that kind of horse because they are 'user friendly' and 'low maintenance'. Those are inherited characteristics.

Horses with 'big motors' like TBs and race-bred QHs and high strung horses also require more rider skill, but they cover a lot of ground and are really more suitable to those wanting to do endurance and long hard rides. If you wanted a vehicle to go fishing and hunting in and drive into the back-country, you would not buy a Corvette or a Ferrari would you? Those 'hot' horses make really fast mounted shooting horses and the ones with speed make barrel horses and other timed event horses. They just require a rider with greater skill.

Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:

1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal.

2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask) and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.

3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.

If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me. You have to remember that whatever you let or ask him to do (like checking things out) is what you are teaching him to do. Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways.

4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.

5) Never ride straight toward something that you can go around. If a horse is afraid of a big tree stump, do not ride him straight toward it. [You are just setting his up to stop and back up. Remember, you are trying to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and setting him up to stop and back up is not doing that.] Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.

We help a lot of riders get past their fears on the trail. When you have an apprehensive rider that is possibly more fearful than the horse, you cannot expect that person to project a confident 'git-er-done' bold demeanor to the horse. So, the rider has to learn how to ride past their fears, focus on a place way past where they are and ride with determination to that place. You want to concentrate on getting to a place that is far beyond the object that the horse is trying to focus on. If the rider is looking at a 'booger', you can bet that the horse is going to be looking at it, too. Many people 'spook' worse than their horse. They are looking for scary objects down the trail before their horse is. If that is part of a rider's problem, they need to learn to ride far ahead of where they actually are.

We do not spend a lot of time trying to desensitize a horse. A lot of people find this strange. Let me tell you why we put so little faith in this exercise in futility (and why I never post on those threads). You will never be able to duplicate everything that can scare a horse. Even if you did, they would encounter this obstacle in a different place on the trail and it would be different to them anyway. You train a horse to listen to you and you train a horse to ignore anything new or scary. You train a horse to go forward when you ask -- no matter what is in front of them (one of the reasons I keep harping on 'good forward impulsion' ) and you train a horse to depend solely on you. You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse.
 
See less See more
#189 ·
IT makes interesting reading and some of what you say makes absolute sense. The problem that we have in England is that our horses have to have 'road sense'. We have to ride them in traffic sometimes with double decker buses and large lorries passing within a few feet of them. If we get in trouble, we can't ride them through it as there is nowhere to go so we have to do 'de-sensitisation'. Although I know what you are saying about spooky horses, de-sensitising DOES work too but it really depends on what you are using the horse for. Wish we had 'trail rides' and didn't need to do any road work at all, ever! You guys are so lucky to have all that open space.
 
#4 ·
Great post Cherie! I love reading your posts (I saved a similar post you did from a long time ago on training trail horses).

Since trail is what I "do" I really try to learn all I can. :)

I seem to have a knack for riding nervous/high strung horses and I think it's because I don't feed off of their fear. It's not that I don't get afraid, because there is always a time and place that I can get scared too. But I "don't sweat the small stuff" and get bent out of shape if the horse jumps at something or worries a little or refuses to walk or gets jiggy. I just have gotten to the point that I let that stuff roll off, do the best I can to control the situation and keep riding.

I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war.

I usually let my horses stop and look at scary things for a moment or two and then attempt to ride on like it is nothing. Most of the time that works for me. I will keep in mind that perhaps I should just ride on like it is nothing to begin with. Sometimes a horse has so much fear of an object you can tell that if you just ride on past the horse will try to flee from it. If I feel that is going to be the case I let them "look" until I feel we can ride past it without fleeing. It seems like those few seconds lets the horse settle a bit instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction.

But in any approach, the rider needs to take the attitude that whatever the scary object is, it is nothing at all and not project nervousness to the horse.

Thank you for the great advice. :-p
 
#172 ·
Great post Cherie! I love reading your posts (I saved a similar post you did from a long time ago on training trail horses).

Since trail is what I "do" I really try to learn all I can. :)

I seem to have a knack for riding nervous/high strung horses and I think it's because I don't feed off of their fear. It's not that I don't get afraid, because there is always a time and place that I can get scared too. But I "don't sweat the small stuff" and get bent out of shape if the horse jumps at something or worries a little or refuses to walk or gets jiggy. I just have gotten to the point that I let that stuff roll off, do the best I can to control the situation and keep riding.

I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war.

I usually let my horses stop and look at scary things for a moment or two and then attempt to ride on like it is nothing. Most of the time that works for me. I will keep in mind that perhaps I should just ride on like it is nothing to begin with. Sometimes a horse has so much fear of an object you can tell that if you just ride on past the horse will try to flee from it. If I feel that is going to be the case I let them "look" until I feel we can ride past it without fleeing. It seems like those few seconds lets the horse settle a bit instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction.

But in any approach, the rider needs to take the attitude that whatever the scary object is, it is nothing at all and not project nervousness to the horse.

Thank you for the great advice. :-p
Great stuff.... I to have a similar style with riding horses.. sure.. you at times may hit the ground... its life. its riding horses. but being relaxed and your horse seeing and feeling you relaxed goes a long way...

I TOO Initially allow my horse to stop and take a look at things that he is afraid of, but once he has seen this once or twice. I encourage him after that to ignore such things and move along..

I allow my horse to skirt around such things and dont insist he goes rite close every time. he knows I will allow him to keep a little distance when passing these objects.

The writer above you is right, in keeping the horses head pointing where you want to ride and discourage the horse from looking all around... they are correct in keeping your horse moving as the horse approaches things that he is unsure of.... practise quietly talking to your horse and he or she over time will hopefully learn to trust your voice and manner in riding..

You should work on teaching your horse TRUST in you....!

With trust you can open your horses mind to all sorts when the horse trusts you with its life...!

Enjoy your journey.... take a seat... as this journey may take a while..(smilies)
 
#7 ·
Thanks folks.

For us, it is just so simple. We USE our horses. We think they should be like a truck -- You turn the key and it should start and go. We expect our horses to go anywhere we point their heads --- and they DO.

The other side of that coin is ---- We are fair and do not ask a horse to do anything that we think is unreasonable and that the horse is not ready and able to do. Then, we ask and it just happens.

It is just like our trailer loading and standing tied. Every horse on the place just jumps into a trailer the instant you point its head at one. They stand tied all day if that is what you want. After joining a forum, I had to start analyzing exactly what we do. We just ask and it happens. I think the biggest single thing is that we expect compete obedience from day one, so our horses just never think about arguing about anything.
 
#83 ·
Thanks folks.

For us, it is just so simple. We USE our horses. We think they should be like a truck -- You turn the key and it should start and go. We expect our horses to go anywhere we point their heads --- and they DO.

The other side of that coin is ---- We are fair and do not ask a horse to do anything that we think is unreasonable and that the horse is not ready and able to do. Then, we ask and it just happens.

It is just like our trailer loading and standing tied. Every horse on the place just jumps into a trailer the instant you point its head at one. They stand tied all day if that is what you want. After joining a forum, I had to start analyzing exactly what we do. We just ask and it happens. I think the biggest single thing is that we expect compete obedience from day one, so our horses just never think about arguing about anything.
I need to know how you get a horse to tie! Please!
 
#10 ·
I know that you are absolutley right, and I wish I could do what you said about riding forward when the horse starts to get worried. I know that this is what would help Mac when he gets worried on the trail (which he worries a lot, though he isn't so much spooky as worried).

What is holding me back is that he has got me off 5 times by making incredibly sudden and unexpected spins. I'll be going along and thinking it's all going swimmingly and the next thing I know, he has kind of dropped out from under me as he bounced off his planted front legs and wheels, almost always to the right. Well, I get thrown forward and he spins out from under me. He's a bit downhill in build to begin with and if I am trotting and posting and he catches me on the up part, I am toast. At the canter he's done it and nearly pitched me. At the walk I can usually ride it out. And he's spun MANY times that were near dumpers for me but I stayed put.

SO, though I know I need to push him harder and faster forward, I find I just don't have the faith that he will stay going forward and not spin on me so fast that I'll hit the dirt , , again. (and I am not so young, either).

This is the only thing that I feel is't right between he and I . And we have worked on riding past scary things a lot and at the walk, he seems to be willing to be lead by me, but I just cannot make my mind and body commit, really committ to FORWARD! like you say is required. I am not sure if I can block out the apprehension and go.

not much you can do about that where you are, but just thought I'd put that out there.
 
#12 ·
My horse had the same issue, he had been abused and was pretty spooky, he is starting to trust me and relax but he did the quick spin and sidways spring on stupid things, like a turkey feather in the trail. I ride with a horned Aussi so I never came off but probably would have in an english.

I know you cant desensitize them to everything like the OP said. But what I did was teach my horse to freeze when scared instead of bolt. Then you have a chance to collect him correct him and move on.
I call it the oogy woogy drill. On 12 foot lead I back him up then letting the rope slid ein my habd I run at him waving my arms OOGY WOOOGY WOOOGY, he used to rear and roll his eyes back but not anymore, as soon as his feet stop I stop, next day Id use a plastic bag, or a beer can with pebbles in it, always something a bit different. Same thing let him spin in circles around you but as soon as he quits moving you stop, repeat on both sides.. You arent gonna make him never afraid, but you can teach him to stop instead of bolt. Last couple big trail rides he has really come around, now he stops and looks and I give him a tap or two escalating to a pop on the withers with the reins to get him moving again if needed. He has learned he isnt getting out of it. Even if I have to get off and lead him he is going where I say. I have had him sincce July and every ride has gotten better.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Most of what you have posted I agree with, however I don't agree with not letting horses look at things or investigate things.. My horses are allowed to look, they must keep walking but they can look all they want. I want the to enjoy going for a ride, not do it because they have to.

I normaly introduce my horses to traffic in long reins, you have a lot more control and the ability to make the horse go forwards.
Reeco was introduced to hacking out in this way, I must have walked miles with him in long reins, but the first time I sat on him we spent 5 mins in the school and then went out on the roads.

He is utterly fearless out on a hack (be it on the roads or on the tracks). He has been an absolute nightmare to break and has taken me close on 9 months to actually get on him, he had a severe fear of anything behind the eyeline and heck it took 6 months to be able to long rein him without him panicing, but now that we are on him he hacks out on his own perfectly, even in the heaviest of traffic.
TBH with him in perticular I'd rather he stopped and looked because his reaction is normaly to bolt! so pushing him faster is not a good idea.

Yesterday we went out for a hack and unfortunatly Reeco lost his back end coming down a hill in slippy mud, however because he was allowed to stop and get his footing back and just stand and calm for 30 seconds, he then walked on forwards happily and without panicing and bolting off on me.
 
#13 ·
This is how people process this. But, it is absolutely wrong as horses do not look at it this way.
Most of what you have posted I agree with, however I don't agree with not letting horses look at things or investigate things.. My horses are allowed to look, they must keep walking but they can look all they want. I want the to enjoy going for a ride, not do it because they have to.
They do not keep going forward because they have to. They go forward because:
1) they trust you as the leader.
2) with you as their trusted leader, they do not feel that they have to examine things.
They are not only perfectly happy letting you decide for them. They are A LOT happier because they do not have to worry about anything.

As far as TL goes:

I would do two things right away:

First, I would get a deep seated stock saddle with big swells on it for trail riding.

Let me explain where I am coming from. I am 65 and have horrible balance any more. My back is so bad I can no longer lope a horse and sure cannot work a cow any more. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Degenerative joint (disk) disease and severe Scoliosis. My MRIs would pass for a 90 year old with a bad back. My Dr. says I should not be able to walk much less ride. I have two younger brothers that have had multiple spinal surgeries and are complete invalids. I am convinced that my insistence to keep riding as much and as long an I can is the only reason I am walking and for sure, still riding. My Dr. just shakes his head. On top of my back problems, my hips and knees are also about gone. My hips were both injected about a month ago. Again, Dr. just shook his head.

So, you cannot still ride with a greater handicap than I have. Somewhere in this degeneration of my body, my balance went out the window. I have taken a couple of pretty hard falls in the past year. So, I am riding a saddle with a deeper seat and looking for one I like better. I have always ridden a saddle designed for reining training, but they are not deep enough and I can't stay in one any more.

Secondly, are you making your horse suffer any consequences for spinning around? You should! If your horse ducks around to the right and you don't go off, You should instantly snatch her head to the left, kick her her in the right ribs and spin her 3 or 4 times to the left. I have found that when I do this with a green horse, they hesitate and start 'spooking in place'. You cannot stop a horse from being a horse. They are a prey animal and are 'hard-wired' to keep themselves safe. It is our job to constantly remind them that we are in charge, that they need to trust us completely and that we will not accept spooking and bolting.

These are the methods I have not only used to make good trail horses, but they are the methods I have used to train horses for CLEET certification for horses to be used as police horses to work in riots and big crowds. If you can train a TB or TB type horse for police work, a trail ride in the woods should be a piece of cake.

Like a good trail horse at my house, a police horse is never shown a 'booger'. They are just taught to trust their rider and follow directives given by that rider. They are never taught to examine things. That is the last thing you want them doing.

[If it makes you feel any better, your horse is a superb athlete. It takes a really athletic horse like a cutting horse to do a 180 so fast that it 'drops' in the front end. This is one of the things we look for in a good cutter or cowhorse.]
 
#17 ·
This is how people process this. But, it is absolutely wrong as horses do not look at it this way.
They do not keep going forward because they have to. They go forward because:
1) they trust you as the leader.
2) with you as their trusted leader, they do not feel that they have to examine things.
They are not only perfectly happy letting you decide for them. They are A LOT happier because they do not have to worry about anything.

As far as TL goes:

I would do two things right away:

First, I would get a deep seated stock saddle with big swells on it for trail riding.

Let me explain where I am coming from. I am 65 and have horrible balance any more. My back is so bad I can no longer lope a horse and sure cannot work a cow any more. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Degenerative joint (disk) disease and severe Scoliosis. My MRIs would pass for a 90 year old with a bad back. My Dr. says I should not be able to walk much less ride. I have two younger brothers that have had multiple spinal surgeries and are complete invalids. I am convinced that my insistence to keep riding as much and as long an I can is the only reason I am walking and for sure, still riding. My Dr. just shakes his head. On top of my back problems, my hips and knees are also about gone. My hips were both injected about a month ago. Again, Dr. just shook his head.

So, you cannot still ride with a greater handicap than I have. Somewhere in this degeneration of my body, my balance went out the window. I have taken a couple of pretty hard falls in the past year. So, I am riding a saddle with a deeper seat and looking for one I like better. I have always ridden a saddle designed for reining training, but they are not deep enough and I can't stay in one any more.

Secondly, are you making your horse suffer any consequences for spinning around? You should! If your horse ducks around to the right and you don't go off, You should instantly snatch her head to the left, kick her her in the right ribs and spin her 3 or 4 times to the left. I have found that when I do this with a green horse, they hesitate and start 'spooking in place'. You cannot stop a horse from being a horse. They are a prey animal and are 'hard-wired' to keep themselves safe. It is our job to constantly remind them that we are in charge, that they need to trust us completely and that we will not accept spooking and bolting.

These are the methods I have not only used to make good trail horses, but they are the methods I have used to train horses for CLEET certification for horses to be used as police horses to work in riots and big crowds. If you can train a TB or TB type horse for police work, a trail ride in the woods should be a piece of cake.

Like a good trail horse at my house, a police horse is never shown a 'booger'. They are just taught to trust their rider and follow directives given by that rider. They are never taught to examine things. That is the last thing you want them doing.

[If it makes you feel any better, your horse is a superb athlete. It takes a really athletic horse like a cutting horse to do a 180 so fast that it 'drops' in the front end. This is one of the things we look for in a good cutter or cowhorse.]
I am not competition for the most 'bunged up" rider out there. I am pretty much a fat middleaged housewife who has a decent seat but certainly no cowgirl type. Mac is athletic and can spin marvelously. The thing with him is the way that he will do this with no real warning. I get warnings that he is worried about something, sure, and I bring his attention back to me. But the times he's spun and put me off have all been so utterly out of the blue it's shocking. Just when it seems everygthing is going so well . . .

I do need a better saddle, though, and I think I will start looking! (I love treatinf myself to new tack.) I ride Mac in a show saddle, actually, not a deep seat. (Billy Cook).

The part Cherie wrote about consequences is something I will put into effect. If I can get after him , I will. In the past I had just been recoving myself (if I was half off) and just going on as if nothing happened. But I think I need to change that approach.

He doesn't spin hardly at all for his owner, but of course, she has tons more self confidence and has been riding since diapers.

So, I thank you for your feedback . I will go out and give it a go. Just getting less and less willing to put myself in the position to hit the dirt.
 
#14 ·
Mona is a spinner when she spooks and she's fast. I can't sit her spins and neither can my sister (who is 10x the rider I am). Darn QH genes.
2 things I've learned this past year are
I anticipate Mona's spooking which makes her spookier, and I give her too much time to react to what is scaring her.
I've stopped looking for demons on the trail (I can't anticipate everything anyway), and when I feel that Mona is about to spook I push her forward instead of stopping. Nothing dramatic just a nudge with my leg. She doesn't spook near as much as she used too.

Cherie great post.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
I agree with your post mostly as well. The one exception I would say is that I am a little more careful before I dismiss my horse when she won't go forward (not spooking, that she doesn't do very much).

A year ago I was riding on unfamiliar trails, and there was some downed barbwire partially covered with leaves. I didn't see it, but when my horse stopped, I just figured that she had a "mentally stuck" moment, so I urged her on. She went because she trusted my leadership, got caught in the wire, went down on her knees and I rolled over her shoulder unharmed. She struggled to her feet and was frantic for a minute before I stood up and calmed her down. We walked back to the trailer. She had multiple cuts on her legs and one on her lip. She still trusts me, and goes where I ask her to go, but if she ever hesitates that strongly, I look around before asking her to move on. I like that she has a mind of her own, and a sense of self-preservation that will keep me safe as well if I let it.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#274 ·
Yesterday I was riding on an unfamiliar trail. Shakira had behaved well the whole ride, negotiating some really fierce obstacles and remained the calmest of the group. However we approached a shallow muddle puddle, she refused to cross. I succeeded in growling her over, she took one step in and fell up to her shoulders. Tomoe. I felt guilty and she refused to cross the next creek, something she never does, even tho this one perfectly safe. I still feel guilty and I plan to go find me a nice creek to ride over a few times to remind her that I do have some sense of judgement.
 
#16 ·
I too agree with your post mostly, Cherie. Some very good advice I reckon. I think there is a huge difference between doing what you suggest when a horse already trusts you as a worthy leader - and as you say, never asking anything of a horse they're not ready for - and following that kind of approach if you're not confident &/or your horse isn't confident of you. For eg. apparently ignoring the horse's own 'opinions' and making a horse work fast when they are afraid is just asking for trouble in many situations, I reckon. Not to mention barbed wire, electricity, snakes... IOW, real dangers us humans may not be aware of.

I also agree with faye that you can indeed 'have your cake & eat it' and allow a horse to explore & check things out too. Many do enjoy this, IME. While I agree it's important to train them to follow your instruction, including ignoring stuff when you say, I don't personally want to knock the natural curiosity out of them either & disallow it completely. While I also agree that forcing a horse to approach a 'scary' is not helpful, if the horse wants to 'investigate', I generally allow them to.

I also think desensitising a horse to a variety of stuff is far from futile(depending how it's done of course!). It's not about getting them desensitised to everything they're ever going to see, but I think it helps them to learn to trust that they're safe in your presence & generalise that trust in the face of wierd & wonderful situations and it also helps them - and their people - know what to do in the face of their fear.
 
#18 ·
Good post, I'm trying to become more of a confident leader with my horse so he can get on better on trail. Like today, i took him out walking on the trail just to cool him off and stretch out my legs; we came to an open field with picnic tables in and he stopped to look so i took him over and lunged him right next to the tables. On the way back he didn't even look at the tables.
 
#19 ·
100% agreed.

I have always done the leg yielding thing when my horses want to look at something. I have to say you are one of the first people ive found who do the same! It just makes sense to me. And produced the best trail horse I've had. My last horse wasn't great, too inherently spooky, but manageable. I think my new girl will be good with miles on her - once she learns to keep her attention on me and not everything else!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#20 ·
if you ride with a strong enough focus, and are any good at using the more basic aids to make that focus a reality, excessive or long term spooking problems just don't happen.

looking at things doesn't matter imo, as long as the back, legs and most importantly the feet of the horse aren't influenced in any way, and remain obedient, the rest of the horse can do whatever it wants

out of interest cherie, what type of saddle do you use now?
 
#22 ·
Indie and I must be horrible trail riders I suppose. She'll go wherever I ask, but she always questions first and I listen. If she is questioning me (like pausing, lifting her head up, or flickering her ears; these have been the cues I learned from her) then I inspect what it was she was nervous about BEFORE I make her go through it. I find it unfair to just make her do something before I'll do it myself.
A lot of horses are able to meet people half way in communication, I take advantage of that. People can call it bad trail manners, or bad riding; but she doesn't spook, buck, rear or anything of the sort, she listens to me... but more importantly we respect each other. Indie has learned that if she ASKS to stop for a break on the long trails, or to look at something; more then often I'll let her. Why? Because we are both out to have fun.
I never agreed with the whole completely dominate over the horse routine personally... all the horses I ever see walk out of it are dead as door nails. I would HATE to have a clinic trained horse... but that's just me. I like Indie wither her personality, I like seeing her explore her surroundings, and I love her being in a partnership with me. Not just a "do whatever I say" relationship... because that doesn't sound like much of a relationship to me.

I don't teach Indie to "be afriad," I encourage her to look around, to sniff around the trail, I want her to be aware of her surroundings because I trust her as much as she trusts me. It may be wishy washy, but I don't believe that a fun trail horse is one that you just sit on. If my horse "starts to show fear" then I let her figure it out, use that brain of hers and see that it is nothing bad, and know what? It worked. The horse is nearly bombproof (Unless there is a wet box on the side of the road :rofl: ), and there are times where she has seen things that could have hurt us that I hadn't!

One time we had an encounter with a big old dog that had come out of the woods. Now I guess as leader I should have chased it off when it growled at us, but that is kind of unlikely, isn't it? Instead Indie pinned her ears, and when I gave her the loose rein she charged the dog and had it take off. I don't want my horse to relay soley on what I say, in my eyes that is dangerous.

But I guess that's just us. To each his own :)
 
#24 ·
we respect each other. Indie has learned that if she ASKS to stop for a break on the long trails, or to look at something; more then often I'll let her. Why? Because we are both out to have fun.
I never agreed with the whole completely dominate over the horse routine personally... all the horses I ever see walk out of it are dead as door nails. I would HATE to have a clinic trained horse... but that's just me.
Me too. You describe it very well. Tho not sure about the clinic trained comment... must be different clinics you're going to!:lol:

I don't think obedience is necessarily incompatible with not respecting the horse or allowing it to enjoy the 'work' too though. While I often *allow* and encourage my horses to explore or whatever, they learn that I won't just *let* them do it whenever and while I'm considerate of their interests & concerns, there are still 'rules of play' and I'm the leader, so if there's a 'job' to be done, they do it. I think it has to be that way, for safety, among other things. I think a huge part of it is being clear & consistent with the rules.
 
#25 ·
I don't think obedience is necessarily incompatible with not respecting the horse or allowing it to enjoy the 'work' too though. While I often *allow* and encourage my horses to explore or whatever, they learn that I won't just *let* them do it whenever and while I'm considerate of their interests & concerns, there are still 'rules of play' and I'm the leader, so if there's a 'job' to be done, they do it. I think it has to be that way, for safety, among other things. I think a huge part of it is being clear & consistent with the rules.
Agreed :D If we are just trudging down the trail, then Indie is free to sniff and look at whatever she wants... she often chooses not too, but that's her choice. But if I *feel* her not able to make a decision (sometimes there are forks in the road, or simple stuff like going left or right around a tree... Indie will stutter in her step, she's asking me to choose), then I'll quickly pick the path. It's a good system we have.

But if we are doing hard *work* where it demands she pays attention... like races with friends :lol: then I require her full cooperation and get it without a fight when I ask for it clearly.

Horses aren't stupid animals, they can tell when they have to put effort into things, and when it's okay to just relax and have a good time, just gotta let them. There's a difference between obedience and domination.
 
#26 ·
But the difference between you guys and Cherie is that Cherie does this for a living. Training a good trail horse is her job. Working through your horse's fear and letting it explore and be curious is a fine way to do it, but those horses are more your "pets", hobby, and companions than anything, and you likely plan on keeping them around. Nobody wants to buy a trail horse that needs to stop and look at everything; when people are on the market for a trail horse, they look for the quietest, most willing, most unflappable horse they can find, not one who wants to stop, look, and investigate everything.

I really love this thread and all the advice Cherie has given; it's given me lots to think about.
 
#27 ·
You're very much right... and that kind makes me sad to think about, that most people just want a "quiet" horse who they just hop on and go. These are the type of horses that are so dead like that it can't be much anything less than riding a machine.
But then that's just me, I suppose at least these sort of horses have a future home with someone with kids.
 
#28 ·
You obviously haven't met a good solid well trained trail horse who loves their job.

I can put anyone on my Arab. He is quiet, well trained, and will go where he is pointed. He still has huge amounts of personality and spirit. He is nowhere near 'shut down' yet he gives total obedience to his rider on the trails. Horses thrive under clear leadership.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#30 ·
A quiet, well-trained, responsive trail horse is quite different from a deadhead. I think you are confusing the two. Please don't be sad for my quiet horse that has the confidence to "think" her way through a situation rather than engage in the "fight or flight" instinct.

I think Cherie hit the nail on the head when she said that she "uses" her horses. The more rides they get with solid, consistent aids, the better they will become.
I cannot help it makes me frown a bit that most horses don't get to show their personality, instead it's trained out of them. Most are told that at all times under saddle they have to be quiet with their heads down and done exactly what their told and are not allowed to use their intelligence to question it. Like I've said, it shines to me more of ownership, than the friendship I've seen be allowed to shine in some horses when given a chance.

Like I've said, their is a difference between a good horse who does whet they're told, and one that doesn't ever have a chance to ask differently.

But that is my opinion, I can hardly change it, and it's only worth as much credit to someone else as other people are willing to give it :wink:
 
#53 ·
When I ask for a half-pass at X when dressaging around the arena, it means do it NOW. If you had a horse who was allowed to "question" every movement, you'd have a pretty lousy dressage horse. Same goes for trail rides. When I ask for a rein-back randomly while headed home on the trail, I don't give a hoot if she'd rather keep going forward, towards home. Halt and back-up NOW mean just that. I don't call that a dead horse who's had her personality trained out of her, I call it a trained horse who knows her job. In spite of all of that, and all that dressage training in pure, blind obedience, she is still very alert and aware on the trail, but not balky or spooky, and pretty handy at keeping you and her out of trouble.

Obviously you can train your horse however you want but characterising all of these horses who have been trained to be obedient, as Cherie described, as not being "allowed to show their personality" is, quite frankly, making a huge assumption.
 
#33 ·
Thank you Wild Spot and Sahara and the others that actually understand and have ridden a good trail horse or a good ranch horse. A good well-trained saddle horse is not a 'dead-head'. I hate dead-heads -- except that I keep a couple around that I can put total dummies on and I know they will baby-sit even the dumbest rider that is doing everything wrong despite three people telling them not to.

Don't tell me that a horse is a dead-head just because he does not give you resistance and have his own agenda. Don't tell me a horse that you can run out after a steer that needs doctoring and rope and doctor him all by yourself (with the help of your horse, of course), is a dead-head. Don't tell me that a horse that carries a complete stranger up above timber-line in a place so steep and rough that a person would be hard-put to walk, is a dead-head. You get in places like that, you don't need a horse that wants to stop and sniff around or turn around to look or stuff.

I think that the people that actually think a horse loses its personality and its 'trained out of them' {choke} have just never ridden a good, well-mannered trail horse or a good ranch horse in their entire lives. How in the world can resistance and arguing be mistaken for personality?

I have never seen a well-trained trail horse or ranch horse stumble over a snake or anything else. But I can tell you that when I have a well-trained horse stop dead in his tracks, I know there is a real serious concern and I am smart enough to not force him forward. I KNOW there is something there. I never have to wonder if he is just looking or sniffing or if there is really a problem.

I had that exact thing happen about 5 years ago. I had a really solid ranch horse bow up his neck, stop and back up a step. I told my husband, who behind me, to help me see what was wrong because I knew something was wrong. About that time a Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.

So no! A well-broke horse does not lose its personality or character. I just know there are an awful lot of people that have never ridden one.
 
#34 ·
Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.
OMG!! I thought we had some scary snakes in Australia!!:shock: Didn't know those guys got that big!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top