A kinder way (off-topic discussions) - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
 233Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #61 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 09:43 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,327
• Horses: 0
Found two in Arizona. My bandwidth month only started 12/7 and I fear it's in deep trouble.

Extreme Cowboy Association EXCA

I probably got a little over excited with the link smilie posted as I was in the past fairly involved in a M/C sport of Enduros (even got in the top 10 nationally in my class a couple of years). The sport was not accessible to spectators as it all took place on remote trails. Then it was moved indoors similar to the video in a series called EnduroCross where national competitors could be watched by spectators.

Meanwhile, Hondo and I will just continue to amble around in the hills enjoying the views, (me) and the wild grasses, (Hondo).
gottatrot and Blue like this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is online now  
post #62 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 09:46 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,776
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
BSMS, again, you are talking a finished hrose, versus training a horse from the beginning
Perhaps, it is because you have never trained a colt, form the snaffle stage, until He can be ridden, off of seat and legs alone...Here is Charlie Cole, riding a jr horse in a western riding pattern, on a totally loose rein, while that hrose keeps cadence and topline...
What in the HECK are you talking about? You seem to be upset about something, but I'll be darned if I know what it is. What does ANYTHING I've written have to do with your videos or posts?

But FWIW, I've never wanted to ride a horse the way Mr Cole was doing. Zero interest. Not attacking him or his sport, but there is nothing in that video I'd want to imitate. But I also have no idea why you posted it or the others. What is your point?
gottatrot likes this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by bsms; 12-11-2016 at 09:53 AM.
bsms is online now  
post #63 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 11:54 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
My point was, that There is a reason to have signal, in a bit, during training,esp, even if , I think we all agree , eventually the goal is to ride that hrose off of seat and legs alone, with just a touch of that indirect rein on his neck, versus any direct reining, and when you reach that point, should not matter much, as to what is on his head or in his mouth
Even when you ride completely off of seat and legs for the most time, for performance events,esp, where you need a great deal of finesse, again that bit signal is useful, esp working at speed.
For instance, a horse running to a sliding stop, is running uphill. Yes, you sit down, stop riding and the horse is cued for that stop, but also , just being able to lift that rein hand slightly, not engaging the bit, but providing that signal in that slight up take, is another factor that can help the horse
Sorry, for not being clear enough, but , of course, one provides signal with seat , legs, but that does not negate the positive of a bit having greater signal, as part of that entire package, and esp while training the horse
You can surely ride a trail horse in a true Tom Thumb, but I don't know of one performance rider, even in disciplines where a horse is shown on a loose rein, to suggest using that bit, or riding with one themselves, and I posted those videos, to show the degree those horses can be ridden without any bit support, so certainly the choice of using bits with signal, does not mean those trainers don't achieve riding off of seat and legs, beyond the average rider.
smrobs likes this.
Smilie is offline  
post #64 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 03:26 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,776
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
...but , of course, one provides signal with seat , legs, but that does not negate the positive of a bit having greater signal, as part of that entire package, and esp while training the horse

You can surely ride a trail horse in a true Tom Thumb, but I don't know of one performance rider, even in disciplines where a horse is shown on a loose rein, to suggest using that bit...
1 - "Signal" in a curb bit is a nice thing. It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle. I like it. But I wouldn't reject a bit for not having that feature, since no snaffle has it - by itself. But there are a lot of ways to provide a horse warning. Apart from seat and leg, the horse can feel and respond to small changes in where the rein is located, or how it feels in his mouth. When Mia was not too excited, you could ride her fine with your pinkie.

Some horses - those like Bandit or Trooper - get signal from a TT bit. Any horse who carries his head near the vertical can use a TT and get signal. If Bandit gets wound up and starts looking ahead, moving his head to a 45 degree angle, then the weight of the reins would rotate the straight shanks of a TT and remove the 'signal' phase - but an excited or nervous horse isn't likely to listen to the signal phase anyways.

2 - I haven't even recommended a TT for trail riding, although I use it for that regularly. I don't care if anyone uses a TT for anything. And I have not, at any time, made any recommendations on how to ride in a show or competition. Not slamming anyone who does. Just not for me.

My point was that I was NOT being cruel or abusive when I use a TT bit with Bandit, and that Bandit doesn't mind it (nor Trooper, Cowboy or Mia). It is foolish for folks to recommend banning the TT bit while accepting bits like a Jr Cowhorse - which I've used without problems on Mia and Trooper, but which has more problems in design than a TT.

And if someone suggests using a TT CAUSES a horse to throw its head, gape its mouth, etc - mine do not. In the least. Any given horse may take a strong dislike to any given bit, but there is nothing about a TT bit that irresistibly results in a confused, nervous, head-thrashing, gnashing horse!

I'm a tack geek. Bits fascinate me. In some cases, a bit will cause a bad reaction - too thick, too thin, wrong shape, etc. Bandit has an odd mouth and it is hard to keep some bits from banging his teeth. There is a reason there are a lot of types of bits. But the longer I ride and the more bits I try, the more I believe it is the hands, not the bit. Someone who wants to ride kindly needs to focus on hands and two-way communication WITH their horse, not bits.
gottatrot, Blue and Avna like this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is online now  
post #65 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 04:30 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
BSMS, are you actually even using a true TT, or just a jointed mouth curb< which I happen to use a lot also. My entire disagreement was on a true Tom Thumb, and I have not seen you picture on of those
Certainly, that jointed mouth with a Billy Allen link, is not a true Tom Thumb
You can't go by hat terms tack catalogs use, or even professionals, who often use terms for convenience, but know that unspoken fact/knowledge
Same catalogs that call just any jointed mouth curb, a Tom Thumb, also refer to them as a shanked snaffle

I know that a hackamore, is synominous with a bosal, but because of that word hackamore, many people think it includes mechanical hackamores also, as evidence by many posts around that topic.

Thus, a Tom Thumb in reality is :
a curb, with a jointed mouth piece, and being a curb, shanks are obviously there, BUT that alone does not a true TT make!
A true TT has FIXED shanks
Those fixed shanks are straight up and down, versus having any angle
Those shanks are also relatively short, which along with those shanks being both straight up and down , plus fixed, has three features that affect signal time in a negative way
Not saying it is not possible to ride a broke horse with such a bit, but why would you, as there is always a chance, even on a broke horse, where at times you need to take up contact
So, please show me a picture, of a bit you use, that you consider to being a TT, by design, not the 'user friendly simplistic term applied for convenience

Far as the hands, being the important point, you are preaching to the choir, as I have very often posted that going to any bit for control is wrong. Even though I ride my senior hroses in curbs, most of the time, I can, and do go back tot he snaffle very often.
HOwever, bits have positive and negative comments made,, on them, baSED ON assuming that the hands on those reins are a constant, or how else could you compare them, having more than one variable?
The very reason I posted those bridless riding videos, was to point out that , yes, they are possible through correct mental conditioned response to a bit, and not by that bit itself, BUT there are bits better then others, to help a horse reach that stage
I have alot of bits, as I buy them instead of shoes or clothes, like many other women.
If I had to, I could make do with one bit, just riding, and two if I still show that horse
I could trail ride any of my horses, in a smooth single jointed snaffle , sweet iron mouth, with copper inlay
If I was showing that hrose, and he was over 5,then I could easily ride that hrose in a loose jawed, medium sweap back shanks, jointed mouth

I might keep a third bit, as some horses do prefer a curb with a port, over a jointed mouth piece

Last edited by Smilie; 12-11-2016 at 04:42 PM.
Smilie is offline  
post #66 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 04:53 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
BSMS, I posted this link, as at the very top, is a picture of a true Tom Thumb

I would not call any bit you posted a true TT. That author has discovered, just like me, the pervasive broad application of the Term' Tom Thumb', applied to any curb with a jointed mouth
I am also not posting this thread, to agree with everything she says, esp when that TT is sude dincorrectly, but just the picture, and the factors that make it atrue TT



Drafts with Dots: The Tom Thumb Bit (what it is, and is not)
Smilie is offline  
post #67 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 05:07 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
this former thread, on the Tom Thumb, from this forum, has an excellent picture, posted by Beau, showing the features of a true Tom Thumb, and why it is a bad bit, and is compared to just a curb with a jointed mouth


https://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack...so-bad-381914/

So, that is about it, I hope, far as the Tom Thumb bit part of this discussion, unless anyone wants to defend the design of a TRUE tom Thumb


Riding with feel,legs and seat and all other factors, like loose rein, aside, the topic of this thread is a'kinder way', so why would you chose abit that is poorly made? I just objected to Rashid lumping all jointed mouth curbs under TT !
smrobs likes this.

Last edited by Smilie; 12-11-2016 at 05:13 PM.
Smilie is offline  
post #68 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 07:26 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,776
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
BSMS, are you actually even using a true TT, or just a jointed mouth curb< which I happen to use a lot also. My entire disagreement was on a true Tom Thumb, and I have not seen you picture on of those
Certainly, that jointed mouth with a Billy Allen link, is not a true Tom Thumb
No kidding. Billy Allen bits are not TTs. This is a Reinsman Tom Thumb, which, like a great many, put a SMALL amount of bend in the shank:



Compare to this website's TT, which it argues should never be used by anyone for any reason:



A Bit About Bits: Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles

Those are the same bit, except the Reinsman runs $80+ and is very good quality. That website tries to distinguish between "Tom Thumbs" and "Argentine Snaffles". In terms of balance and function, they are equivalent bits, except the Argentine snaffle can have the reins attached to the mouthpiece - the way I sometimes use my Billy Allens.

I would never use a thin wire bit, but Larry Trocha - a guy I like - does, sometimes. I've met people who used chain bits. NOT for me - but they were getting good results with a contented horse. I've used a Waterford, which some people claim is cruel or harsh - but Mia didn't seem to mind it:



Some horses dislike a given bit, just as Mia absolutely refused to accept a thick-linked French link snaffle. I understand why some folks dislike ANY single joint bit, or reject single joint curb bits. I also know a double joint snaffle can be used brutally - and can be used that way by people who have NO idea what they are doing to the horse's tongue:



That is why "kindness" is best found in listening to the horse, learning an independent seat, how to follow the motion of the horse's head - and letting the horse tell you if a bit is harsh. It is, after all, his mouth...
gottatrot likes this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is online now  
post #69 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 07:59 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,327
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle.

When you say pressure, are you referring to tension on the rein? Or are you talking pressure in terms of PSI force applied to the horse?

In terms of PSI applied to the horse, I do not believe there is any bit out there that applies less PSI to the horse than a crossunder no matter whose hands are holding the reins.

In terms of how hard the rein is actually pulled, I can certainly see that in trained hands with a trained horse the rein would not need to be pulled as hard as with a bitless for the same response. But more PSI would still be being applied with the bit and that would be to the mouth and not a long section running down the face and under the jaw.

That said, there is no need to put very much tension on the reins for Cook's. The horse can feel the tiniest change in tension, and that tension change is distributed over a very large area. On the order of maybe 20 times the area and an area that is less sensitive?

But if the Hondo hated a crossunder, I would not try to make him accept it.

For horses that will accept them, the crossunder is kinder.
gottatrot likes this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is online now  
post #70 of 105 Old 12-11-2016, 09:18 PM
Started
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Virginia USA
Posts: 2,490
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle.
Sorry, this I have trouble believing. TRUE that less is more with a curb. That is because they provide far more leverage and apply far more pressure because of the shanks.

However, if we are speaking about a horse trained to a specific device, whether it be curb, snaffle, or bitless... The very action of being able to move one finger something like 2cm to move the horse should be universal. It doesn't matter the tool, but the training and what the horse is trained with.

I can stop my horse using my seat and a feather's light touch of pressure to a sidepull or even halter. If I work/train her long enough in any device and accustom her to it, I receive the same result.

Your statement is highly dependent on the individual horse. If a horse does not work well in a bitless bridle, of course the curb allows you to use far less pressure. However I have no doubt that with ANY bitless bridle and riding the horse that likes it, I could use the same amount of pressure or even less if I wanted to than I would need with a curb.

Now, if you were speaking of solely rein cues (meaning excluding all body cues including the weight of your hand without applying pressure to the bit/device), and you mean to say that the curb allows more signal/warning to the horse ahead of time, then yes I agree. However, the same thing can be achieved with a quiet hand that applies pressure gradually, no matter the device.
gottatrot likes this.

"You can do something wrong for thirty years and call yourself experienced, you can do something right for a week and experience more than someone who spent thirty years doing the wrong thing." ~WhattaTroublemaker
horseluvr2524 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A kinder way (for me) RemingtonDiva Horse Training 43 12-16-2016 01:21 PM
Diet discussions Golden Horse Plus Sized Riders 15 08-30-2014 06:32 PM
Breeding Appaloosa to Paint Discussions hillside farm Horse Colors and Genetics 48 01-26-2012 03:45 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome