Lunging For Respect - crowding & biting - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Lunging For Respect - crowding & biting

Hi everyone.

So I have had my gelding about 2 months now, he is 5. We have been working on ground work, I have been following the CA method. He is beautiful free lunging in the round pen, quick turns of direction 95% to the inside (if it isn't, it is usually my error) quick departures all that. So we moved onto yielding hindquarters, also picked it up quickly. He is a little slower with yielding his forequarter mostly because I don't think I'm very good as getting myself in the right position for it, but we have been doing much better. We do desensitization and he doesn't spoke at the stick (or spook at anything really... he is amazing on the trail) on either side or in front.

We started Lunging for respect with his lead rope and he fights SO MUCH. I'm not sure what it is, he will go once around maybe and when I ask him to stop and turn directions he just backs up and basically glares at me. I ask him with pointing, then click, then stick and then bump on his neck and increase the pressure. He starts moving off and we go for a little while again and then I ask him to yield and face me, which he does, but same fight getting him to move his feet again. Sometimes he will move off, but makes a stink face and starts to crowd me like he wants to bite me. I push his face away and then he stops moving forward and then the whole thing starts over again. I had a friend come and help me, she stood to the side behind me with the stick so she could really move his hind end and body away and out which worked well and he finally got the idea of what to do. So we work on it for a few days straight (for maybe 15 min at a time) gradually removing my 2nd helper and he was good for about a week or so, until a few days ago. He reverted completely, fighting again and this time he bit me >.< hard enough for it to leave a NASTY mark.

I'm not sure how to move forward, I don't want to keep fighting with him, (he knows how to do it since he will track both ways for the first few times and then shuts down) but I know with him trying to crowd me he doesn't respect my space at all and I can't keep a second person with me all the time to just work on his lunging. Just wondering if anyone had suggestions, I am going to talk to my previous trainer whom I took lessons from as well. He doesn't have the best attitude with other things also sometimes, like he use to kick out a lot when I first started riding him we have worked through it, but he still kicks out sometimes. Yesterday I got on him bareback and he started rounding his back and acting like he was going to kick out. I have had him checked by a couple vets, a chiropractor, got his feet checked, everything so I don't think it is from pain, I think my pony has a bad attitude about things. I also spoke with his previous owner and she did say he kicked out a bit with her under saddle as well, WHICH she didn't tell me of course when I went to buy him, so yay.
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post #2 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 11:36 AM
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Sounds like he's tired of going around in circles every day. Lunging every day gets boring for horse hard on their joints also.

Just because you had him checked by a vet had chiro work done. Doesn't mean his attitude isn't from pain. Take him out on the trail give his mind a change of scenery, let him move out going down the trail.

In my book lunging can be way over done there are other ways to train a horse. Line driving riding out on trails thats where all my horse's training is done. Gound work here is making him backup and move his different body parts when asked.

Hardly ever lunge and my boy is respectful good ground manners. And when I do lung he's very responsive. To me sounds like lunging burn out.
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post #3 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 12:18 PM
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@rambo99 i completely agree he is probably getting tired. go on some trail rides! :)

Happy Riding,
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post #4 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrelmare11 View Post
@rambo99 i completely agree he is probably getting tired. go on some trail rides! :)
We do go out on the trail everyday, well just about anyway :) I mainly started with lunging before our rides because he kicked out. Wanted to get respect from the ground to see if it helped, but he doesn't kick out as much anymore, which changed from me riding him through it. I don't really have him go in a circle a lot, it is more changes of direction than anything, but I will reduce the amount that I lunge him and I will try for just a few turns before he starts to shut down.
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post #5 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 01:03 PM
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IMO, you canít DO any specific things to get respect. Because you can chase a horse around doesnít mean it respects you.
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post #6 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 01:49 PM
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Groundwork doesn't automatically equal endless circles. I did 5-6mos of groundwork with my mare, and she didn't get burned out because I changed it up. Even when I do lunge, I do a LOT of straight lines, not so many circles. It's better for them. Constant circles aren't good, in fact they're pretty uncomfortable for them.

Make him back up, walk next to him, but not directly on his shoulder, teach him space, etc. Change the scenery a bit. Make things interesting. Let him know he can't get in your space. If what you are doing now isn't working, change it up.

Ride more, worry less.
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post #7 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 02:14 PM
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It doesnít matter what you do, if the horse doesnít respect the handler, it is useless busy work. To get the respect of a horse, they must KNOW that silliness will not be tolerated. Horses do not tolerate nagging. Make sure your punishment is strong enough the first time. Teach the horse to ground tie, and work around it. This seems to give it some responsibility.....when it RESPECTS you enough to think about standing still while you walk around, and are not paying 100% attention to it, you will be on your way!

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post #8 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greentree View Post
It doesnít matter what you do, if the horse doesnít respect the handler, it is useless busy work. To get the respect of a horse, they must KNOW that silliness will not be tolerated. Horses do not tolerate nagging. Make sure your punishment is strong enough the first time. Teach the horse to ground tie, and work around it. This seems to give it some responsibility.....when it RESPECTS you enough to think about standing still while you walk around, and are not paying 100% attention to it, you will be on your way!
He actually does tie really well. He is pretty patient and doesnt dance or do anything silly when I do other things the only time he shows sings of disrespect is when I try to lunge him on his lead or when he kicks out when Im riding. I have tried in different places over objects and all sorts of things to keep his mind engaged. I dont just lunge him in circles for hours on end, we back up through poles, yield his hind and forequarters and other things besides just circles. He follows me around also and we have been doing liberty type things as well, not much, just starting. I do think that I push his limits a little bit on his lead line, which is where the shutting down starts. So I will start with disciplining myself and stoping before I see him shutting down.
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Last edited by Dria; 04-03-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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post #9 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 02:51 PM
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There is a gelding on the property where I keep my horses that is a real bad actor. I think that I have mentioned him before in another post. He was an orphan who was bottle fed and coddled, he wasn't gelded until he was six and the first six years of his life he was either in his stall or his pen. He never had any interactions with other horses and a jerk with people.

I was asked help with him in the round pen and that was the first thing that he wanted to do was come at me and bite. Lunge whips can do wondrous things to make a horse believe that is a bad idea. Seriously, it took about five minutes of making him move his feet and keep his distance and he decided that behaving would be good for him. A couple of days later he forgot but at least his owner is not as afraid of him and makes him listen now. He's getting better but I wouldn't completely trust him either.

It sounds to me that he is telling you that he is the leader and you are letting him. No way can you allow him to move your feet. If he comes at you, you need to be pro active and get him back before he is close enough to bite. You need to use that whip on him if he is going to bite you.

I can understand a horse getting tired of running in circles forever but that doesn't sound like what you are doing. And even so, a horse that bites is a dangerous horse. Have someone show you first hand what to do, how to move his feet and get him out of your space and when to release pressure for it to be effective.

There will be only one of you for all time. Fearlessly be yourself.
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post #10 of 52 Old 04-03-2019, 03:03 PM
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I will be upfront here in that I am not a fan of CA's approach. I don't see the point in chasing a horse and making demands that he whip around when changing directions, and leap out and go the other directions. And, the focus on 'chasing' the hind end leads to a horse that will often want to stay facing you as much as possible, becuse it makes his hind end stay out of your reach. He may even try to maintain that 'facing up' position in a defensive manner, becuase he knows the instant he turns to offer you his 'side', you will put pressure on to make him leap off into forward movement.



This builds resentment in a horse, and eventually, in some, aggression. He is very sulky about pressure on his front, becuase he does not want you to be able to reach his hind.


I believe that a hrose should be taught to yield it's front half BEFORE it is taught to yield its hind quarters. And, if you plan to do 4H with this horse, you will want a really good yield of the face/ shoulder, so you can excell in showing in hand.


I would investigate how to approach teaching the hrose to yield the forequarters, just with a halter and lead, and NOT as a percurser to making them go around in circles.


I would also teach this horse to back up away from me, ( and I know people laugh at this , but . . . ) from a wiggle of the lead rope. I would work with the horse where I back them off from me and ask them to stand out 'there', away from me. THEN, you can learn to make them step away, step off to the side.
THEN you can make them back away, step to the side (so that the driveline becomes available to you), AND ask them to begin circling.


Each step , one at a time. get the horse thinking through each thing you are asking them to do., No rushing them into the next step.
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