Lunging youngster - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 12:33 PM
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I'd go back to exercises such as disengaging his hindquarters, shoulder, and flexing from side to side first of all.

Second, I would ask for a lot of direction changes with this horse. Every quarter circle.

Third, (and some may disagree with this, take it with a grain of salt). If my horse did that to me, I would yank her head around and smack her in the butt as hard as I could with my whip. That behavior is NOT acceptable and could become dangerous. It's extremely rude. My horses are not allowed to drag me around under any circumstances. Remember, generally one good whack is better than a dozen taps.

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post #12 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 12:46 PM
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I agree with what you are saying @horselover1 _1, but if you actually were in this situation I think you might think differently. Firstly, I can only speak for Zeus, he disengaged, flexed, pivoted perfectly. This trick was something he already knew how to do, so best bet would be to never teach it, but it was there in any case. You couldnít jerk his head back. Maybe if you had a stud chain, but not with a halter and I never tried the chain because I donít have any experience using one.

Also, when he took his head around like that he also took a big leap into a run. It was a mix of just the right tricks that it couldnít be easily beat. I dallied off on a stronger horse who knew how to set up for a hit, which, throwing him down when he tried, cured him of doing it anymore being led. When he started it at the break lunging I didnít have the capability to do anything about it in the same manner. Round pen fixed it, but it isnít so simple a trick to cure as pulling on their head and wacking them.

It doesnít seem this horse has figured out the run addition, but without getting his head back to where it should be, a smack might just teach him the winning combination. ;)

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaamís Donkey
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post #13 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 12:57 PM
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I've had a couple horses do the same thing to me, disengaging hindquarters helped to get around it. Pulling their head around wacking them on the butt did the trick.

It's definitely not a cure all, every horse and handler is different. Maybe it'd help OP, maybe not, just something I would try if I was in that position.

Round pen would absolutely be a great solution, but sometimes you don't have access to one.
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post #14 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 01:13 PM
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It usually comes from sending them off and making them think away from you instead of toward you as they are going off. Very common mistake in teaching a horse to longe. Remember when correcting this that the horse thinks they are doing what you want because they have been taught to think away from you when being sent off around you.

There are a couple ways to fix it, one is in the round pen by getting them to go and properly hook onto you and face you for instruction and direction changes etc.

Another way is to crab walk the horse and teach him to properly crab walk on a lead line and halter, Dan Steers is one trainer who has good examples of doing that.

The way I prefer to do it is via focus for relaxation on the ground. That is a Warwick Schiller thing and doing it properly really gets them thinking in toward you even as they are being sent out around you. Because that concentrating on you triggering relaxation is such a powerful foundation tool I prefer that because you can build your other tools on top of it. It makes for a better overall horse in the long run.
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post #15 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyTheCornbread View Post
It usually comes from sending them off and making them think away from you instead of toward you as they are going off. Very common mistake in teaching a horse to longe. Remember when correcting this that the horse thinks they are doing what you want because they have been taught to think away from you when being sent off around you.

There are a couple ways to fix it, one is in the round pen by getting them to go and properly hook onto you and face you for instruction and direction changes etc.

Another way is to crab walk the horse and teach him to properly crab walk on a lead line and halter, Dan Steers is one trainer who has good examples of doing that.

The way I prefer to do it is via focus for relaxation on the ground. That is a Warwick Schiller thing and doing it properly really gets them thinking in toward you even as they are being sent out around you. Because that concentrating on you triggering relaxation is such a powerful foundation tool I prefer that because you can build your other tools on top of it. It makes for a better overall horse in the long run.

Not sure what you mean by ‘sending away’ ?
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post #16 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knave View Post
I agree with what you are saying @horselover1 _1, but if you actually were in this situation I think you might think differently. Firstly, I can only speak for Zeus, he disengaged, flexed, pivoted perfectly. This trick was something he already knew how to do, so best bet would be to never teach it, but it was there in any case. You couldn’t jerk his head back. Maybe if you had a stud chain, but not with a halter and I never tried the chain because I don’t have any experience using one.

Also, when he took his head around like that he also took a big leap into a run. It was a mix of just the right tricks that it couldn’t be easily beat. I dallied off on a stronger horse who knew how to set up for a hit, which, throwing him down when he tried, cured him of doing it anymore being led. When he started it at the break lunging I didn’t have the capability to do anything about it in the same manner. Round pen fixed it, but it isn’t so simple a trick to cure as pulling on their head and wacking them.

It doesn’t seem this horse has figured out the run addition, but without getting his head back to where it should be, a smack might just teach him the winning combination. ;)
Yes this is wha the is doing, when I take him back to the basic groundwork he answers all those questions perfectly and then when lunging he tucks.




Quote:
Originally Posted by horseylover1_1 View Post
I've had a couple horses do the same thing to me, disengaging hindquarters helped to get around it. Pulling their head around wacking them on the butt did the trick.

It's definitely not a cure all, every horse and handler is different. Maybe it'd help OP, maybe not, just something I would try if I was in that position.

Round pen would absolutely be a great solution, but sometimes you don't have access to one.
Yeah I have tried yanking his head back around and giving him a bum whack in which is works for about 5 seconds and then he tucks again. He waits until I release the pressure and then tucks
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post #17 of 33 Old 04-25-2019, 08:52 PM
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I understand what Andythecornbread is saying . . but in this case I think he has learned this as a trick, an evasion, not as any kind of misunderstanding with you 'sending him away'. Of course, I'd have to actually witness the whole process to truly know what is happening.


I had a hrose somewhat like this. He was cunning. I know we are not supposed to use such descriptions of horses, but he was. He knew exactly the moment when I was not paying enough attention to stop his plans before execution. He'd whip his head around , away from me, line up his whole body behind that head, and nothing short of a tractor could stop him from ripping the line out of my hand and thundering off.


He did this usually to avoid loading into the trailer. So, it was not some kind of 'play' for him, but a technique he had learned worked to avoid something he found worrisome.


If I kept him in a close circle when lunging , or trailer loading prep, and I made sure that his head was ALWAYS tipped toward me and was stepping both forwad and away from me ( crabwalking), then I had that split second to shut down his thought to swing and bolt. But, darn! I had to be really sharp on it. I had to keep his thought and his head tipped in at ALL TIMES!


What I eventually did was just use a chain over his nose, with a short brief shank when he was thinking of this, to remind him of what I COULD do. I'm sorry, I used force and pain. But, he was an older horse whose habits were learned, and I only needed him to participate for very short times.


So, you can work with him on this keeping his head tipped in ALL the time. you can add a chain, or put the lead line up over his nose. I think that working more on his yielding of the shoulder will be very helpful, as this is rreally waht you are doing when you ask them to circle but also to step out ward (that 'crabwalk thing")


This is often called 'drifting the shoulder' in some western parlance.
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post #18 of 33 Old 04-26-2019, 01:46 AM
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I just skimmed, but in situations like this, a stud shank REALLY comes in handy. I had a QH here last week who could "only" be lunged in a round pen, or he would bolt off with anyone. A good few sharp yanks on a shank over his nose fixed his wagon.
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post #19 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I understand what Andythecornbread is saying . . but in this case I think he has learned this as a trick, an evasion, not as any kind of misunderstanding with you 'sending him away'. Of course, I'd have to actually witness the whole process to truly know what is happening.


I had a hrose somewhat like this. He was cunning. I know we are not supposed to use such descriptions of horses, but he was. He knew exactly the moment when I was not paying enough attention to stop his plans before execution. He'd whip his head around , away from me, line up his whole body behind that head, and nothing short of a tractor could stop him from ripping the line out of my hand and thundering off.


He did this usually to avoid loading into the trailer. So, it was not some kind of 'play' for him, but a technique he had learned worked to avoid something he found worrisome.


If I kept him in a close circle when lunging , or trailer loading prep, and I made sure that his head was ALWAYS tipped toward me and was stepping both forwad and away from me ( crabwalking), then I had that split second to shut down his thought to swing and bolt. But, darn! I had to be really sharp on it. I had to keep his thought and his head tipped in at ALL TIMES!


What I eventually did was just use a chain over his nose, with a short brief shank when he was thinking of this, to remind him of what I COULD do. I'm sorry, I used force and pain. But, he was an older horse whose habits were learned, and I only needed him to participate for very short times.


So, you can work with him on this keeping his head tipped in ALL the time. you can add a chain, or put the lead line up over his nose. I think that working more on his yielding of the shoulder will be very helpful, as this is rreally waht you are doing when you ask them to circle but also to step out ward (that 'crabwalk thing")


This is often called 'drifting the shoulder' in some western parlance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhattaTroublemaker View Post
I just skimmed, but in situations like this, a stud shank REALLY comes in handy. I had a QH here last week who could "only" be lunged in a round pen, or he would bolt off with anyone. A good few sharp yanks on a shank over his nose fixed his wagon.
Thanks for everyone’s responses, I do not own a shank though or a nose chain. I will try the roundyard solution first and then will work from there and see how we go
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post #20 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 03:05 PM
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I'd ask for a halt and step in then get him to flex and do some stretching. Turn him and do the other side. Work with both sides a couple of times but end with him going left then just send him out a few feet and use a driving whip to drive him from the rear while you point and direct from the front. You aren't touching him with it just using it to make a triangle and encourage that forward motion. Anytime he pulls to the right go back to the flexing but add in other exercises that move his feet. Walk with him in an increasing circle but keep lead shorter until he is going how you want then gradually feed him more lead and make your circle smaller.
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