Lunging youngster - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 03:15 PM
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imo, if any of my horses did this and had the ability to overpower me and make it so I am unable to both hold them and carry a stick, I would enlist a helper for a session or two... Sure, it might help to get him going in a roundpen, but any horse that I have had that has done this goes right back to doing this when there aren't fences blocking them. I would have the stronger of the two people hold the line, and the other operate the stick. As soon as he goes to tuck and pull, have the person holding the line sharply correct his head and have the person holding the stick smack that bum. I wouldn't expect it to take more than a few corrections to fix this, as long as everything is timed right and successful.

Another alternative, as another poster suggest, is putting a chain over the nose. There is no good reason to not have a change lead in your arsenal of tack, they come in handy in lots of situations. One of the horses that my family used to own would do the same thing on the lunge, and after cracking him on the nose with the chain a few times, he no longer dared to try it. I left the chain situated on his halter every time I lunged him after that, but I had the lead attached to his halter rather. The chain being there reminded him to not pull anything, and was always there for my to attach the lead back to if he decided to try his luck again.
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post #22 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 08:11 PM
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First & foremost, if he was lunging well & suddenly refuses to go one direction, especially as he's such a youngster, I'd want to rule out any physical cause before working on it as a 'training' problem.

Secondly, in that pic you posted, you are way close, in a dangerous position. Assuming it is just a training prob, I'm gathering you're so close because you haven't got as far as lunging him at a distance yet? Otherwise, not sure why you're in that position.

Basically, I'd get him going well at a walk, relatively close, and reward the smallest stuff for now - IOW, start at the basics. Work towards your goal in small, easy increments, as he becomes good at the previous stages.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
First & foremost, if he was lunging well & suddenly refuses to go one direction, especially as he's such a youngster, I'd want to rule out any physical cause before working on it as a 'training' problem.

Secondly, in that pic you posted, you are way close, in a dangerous position. Assuming it is just a training prob, I'm gathering you're so close because you haven't got as far as lunging him at a distance yet? Otherwise, not sure why you're in that position.

Basically, I'd get him going well at a walk, relatively close, and reward the smallest stuff for now - IOW, start at the basics. Work towards your goal in small, easy increments, as he becomes good at the previous stages.
Pain was the first thing we ruled out. Not my first rodeo.

For your secondly, that is a still from a video that is not where I started off. However he’s almost 450kg so yes when he pulls I’m not going to end up in an ideal position.
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post #24 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for your answers, I’ll see how we go from here. However I won’t be doing anything more until I see my instructor

As for the reason I don’t own a chain, Ive never had to use one therefore never needed to own one.

Last edited by Rainaisabelle; 04-27-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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post #25 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearDonkey View Post
There is no good reason to not have a change lead in your arsenal of tack, ... after cracking him on the nose with the chain a few times,
That may be YOUR OPINION. IME there is no good reason TO use that sort of severe pain over their sensitive nose in the name of 'training'. I would no more 'crack' a horse over the nose with a chain than I would think that was appropriate to do to a person. Altho IMO humans may deserve that kind of thing, whereas animals don't.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #26 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 09:56 PM
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In my 20 years of riding and handling horses, in my very limited manner (neither owning, nor breeding, nor training), I have used a chain over the nose only once. But, I wished I'd used it twice.


The once was for the gelding that, like the OP's horse, had learned how to turn away , line up, and take over the leadline so that NOTHING could stop him. The chain over the nose reminded him to cut that nonsense out.


the other time, I said, "I don't need that chain over his nose", and took a strong warmblood out to graze, who then proceeded to take me for a Nantucket slay ride in the grass! (and took off all the skin from a large section of my palm)


Maybe a better trainer than me could get by without EVER using a stud chain. I am sure of it. AND, I would NEVER< EVER use a stud chain when lunging at a distance horse (because it is too hard to control the effect of it)
Only when leading, and only for a very clear message, delivered once or twice. I am sure it's a shortcut, in the longrun, but sometimes you have to just break the horse out of a certain way of thinking about things.
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post #27 of 33 Old 04-27-2019, 11:12 PM
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I always use a chain, UNDER the chin, when training to lunge. I am too old to be drug around the ring. I donít yank on it!! If they hit the end of it, well, they quickly turn around, and donít do that again, but they do NOT drag me. I think this is one thing that needs to be VERY firmly addressed, because it is a psychological war of the will, and this war needs to be WON early on.

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post #28 of 33 Old 04-28-2019, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Just want to make a big clarification as I think I’ve mis communicated when I said he ‘drags me around’ what I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that I’m actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.

If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.
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post #29 of 33 Old 04-28-2019, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rainaisabelle View Post
I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that Iím actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.
You said something like 'thrown around like a rag doll' which yeah, gave me a different idea to the above. I don't get what you mean by 'forced to follow his head'.

[/quote]If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.[/QUOTE]

Can you not just ignore his tucked head, if he is going in the right direction? Yes, mine would stop if I put pressure on the lead, and if I put pressure behind, they would go forward/speed up. If I put ppressure - or whacked, whatever - on the side of their rump however, I'd expect them to turn & face me.

The way I train a horse is to teach them to yield, first to direct - actual touch - then implied - pointed whip, finger - pressure wherever I direct it. So I teach them to yield their forehand away by pressure to shoulder/neck/cheek. I teach them to yield their hind end away with pressure on flank/hip. Pressure out in front - or on the leadrope if I'm not in front, leading forward - means slow/stop/back up and pressure out behind means go/faster.

So, how I would handle your situation... Assuming I'd ensured the horse knew all the above up close & then at gradually increasing distance, I'd probably ignore the tucked head for now at least, but the second he *thought* about turning away, I'd put some pressure on his flank/HQ, to bring him back more into the circle. If he pulled on me, turned away, whatever, I'd make that pressure on his flank stronger & keep it up until he moved that 'quarter' back away from me. If he turned in too much, I'd direct his head away a bit & forward more. If he slowed, I'd put pressure out behind him. If he moved off in the right direction, I would praise & negatively reinforce by dropping all pressure. Let him stop if he stops, then in a few seconds, ask again. I'd get that going well, so he will go in that direction with very little pressure. Then when he's doing well, I'd start asking him to keep going until I asked for a stop. Once you've got the basic behaviour reliable, then you can start getting particular about 'headset' etc.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #30 of 33 Old 04-28-2019, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainaisabelle View Post
I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that I’m actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.
You said something like 'thrown around like a rag doll' which yeah, gave me a different idea to the above. I don't get what you mean by 'forced to follow his head'.
If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.[/QUOTE]

Can you not just ignore his tucked head, if he is going in the right direction? Yes, mine would stop if I put pressure on the lead, and if I put pressure behind, they would go forward/speed up. If I put ppressure - or whacked, whatever - on the side of their rump however, I'd expect them to turn & face me.

The way I train a horse is to teach them to yield, first to direct - actual touch - then implied - pointed whip, finger - pressure wherever I direct it. So I teach them to yield their forehand away by pressure to shoulder/neck/cheek. I teach them to yield their hind end away with pressure on flank/hip. Pressure out in front - or on the leadrope if I'm not in front, leading forward - means slow/stop/back up and pressure out behind means go/faster.

So, how I would handle your situation... Assuming I'd ensured the horse knew all the above up close & then at gradually increasing distance, I'd probably ignore the tucked head for now at least, but the second he *thought* about turning away, I'd put some pressure on his flank/HQ, to bring him back more into the circle. If he pulled on me, turned away, whatever, I'd make that pressure on his flank stronger & keep it up until he moved that 'quarter' back away from me. If he turned in too much, I'd direct his head away a bit & forward more. If he slowed, I'd put pressure out behind him. If he moved off in the right direction, I would praise & negatively reinforce by dropping all pressure. Let him stop if he stops, then in a few seconds, ask again. I'd get that going well, so he will go in that direction with very little pressure. Then when he's doing well, I'd start asking him to keep going until I asked for a stop. Once you've got the basic behaviour reliable, then you can start getting particular about 'headset' etc.[/QUOTE]


He is a strong horse so no, can’t ignore the tucked head as it’s not like tucking his chin into his chest he’s flexing and almost touching his side, honestly couldnt give a **** about his headset at present but he won’t go forward with his head flexed to the side. If you read above someone else has a similar experience and exactly what they’re describing is what’s happening.

As I said above I will be waiting to see my instructor before I go any further with him. Thanks for everyone’s replies I really appreciate the time it takes &#x1f642;
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