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my horse shut down!

9K views 44 replies 16 participants last post by  Smilie 
#1 ·
HI all,

If you guys remember I was having a problem with my trainer for my new 5 year old horse, she is aggressive rough etc. had a talk w/her she stopped smacking him, pulling on lead, etc. yet I stuck with her. I now regret it bigtime!

The last two lessons I had w/her my horse wouldn't move forward into the trot, so she suggested I hit him with the crop and kick him basically fight him to go forward. He got even worse, shaking head up and down back and forth, turning to look at me. What should of been done is stopped him, corrected it had him make small circle or back him up and begin again. Yet i followed her advice, she's my trainer was in the moment.

Today, after two very bad lessons I decided to go work on him on my own. He completely shut down. Wouldn't move forward to walk nothing, ears straight back, and backed me up into a fence. I had to do an emergency dismount.

I'm beyond aggrivated to say the least, a week ago I had him on a 4 hour trail, he was listening, id' taught him some stuff. I had to grab another trainer to help me. She lunged him calmly, calmed him down, and than proceeded to try to ride him in the round pen. He'd stop walking, wouldnt' walk, wouldn't turn wouldnt' do anything. She said he shut down, he's so apprehensive and nervous. He's all screwed up, what happened. So I told her.

She suggested she ride him 3x this week while I do ground work and we go back to square one again. The owner of the barn wouldnt' admit it was her trainer that screwed him up. She said well it's your fault, you were doing all this stuff w/him trail rides etc. I said he loved it, did great. I had him transitioning into trot last week, than I had two very bad intense lessons with your trainer and here we are!

So, do we all agree w/letting trainer ride him to get him to even walk and help calm him before I try to mount him again?

It's such a shame, I knew in my gut she was the wrong person. Yet I didnt' listen to that little voice inside my head. Now i have a screwed up horse, hopefully it's just temporary.
 
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#5 ·
Yes, lets have the pain disclaimer, and make sure that tack fits and horse has no pain issue.
Once that has been ruled out, BACKING a horse, that balks, IS THE WRONG thing to do.
If a horse (pain issue ruled out), succeeds in balking (ie, looses forward ), the next escalation can either be that horse going up, or running backwards
Just because he rode on a trail ride , with other horses means nothing. Many horses will happily go along with other horses, but shut down, if they are spoiled, when asked to do anything on their own.
I did not see your trainer ride, but I see the possibility of a horse that has taken the proverbial mile, after getting away with refusing forward, whenever it suited that horse
I assume you ruled out all pain issues, and if that is the case, better believe I get that forward, when a horse tries to balk-not circles, certainly not backing up, but forward.
yes, this horse needs to be ridden by someone that can assess this horse, the either go right back to ground work and fill in holes, or make the horse a believer that balking is just not allowed. after all pain issues, of course, have been ruled out
 
#6 ·
Rule out pain/ tack problems

Given the problems with the trainer I would suggest the horse has trust issues and unfortunately he associates you with the problem.

Go back several steps. Lunge. Pat. Brush. Talk. Play music.

When you get on, for a couple of weeks don't ask for much. Get him walking where you want then walk over poles. When you feel that is ok start trotting. If he is playing up you must keep calm, keep talking and try bring him to calm walk (always assuming he's not putting you in danger - in which case you may want someone on lunge-rope while you ride, don't let then use the whip on him, you are the one giving him directions they are just backup).

Yelling, jabbing, hitting is not going to sort the horse, it has been part of the problem (and I forget why the trainer treated your horse so badly in the first place)

You need him going forward easily and responding to basic bend, turn, stop, start commands. You wont be able to do anything much else till this is sorted.

I hope the new trainer will keep you on and help out. You are better of on your own than with the first one.

I hope your horse comes right
 
#7 ·
His saddle was fitted for him, had saddle guy come down and actually measure him for it. Rest of tack is fine and he had seen vet previously and is very healthy. The issue is, unfortunately as I stated 3 really bad training session with an over aggressive trainer, and for a green horse who was not going forward using the crop to hit him, kicking alot etc not the way to go. Trainer already rode him and accessed. Assessment was he is shut down, and we have to go slow now to get him back w/her riding him. Not me, so he doesnt' take it out on me. He was fine prior to these sessions with other trainer. I had him in the same ring on my own doing fine.

It's hard letting someone else ride him, yet for now I'm guessing it is the right thing to do. Clearly I did drop the other trainer.
 
#8 ·
I just saw the last response. Yes you are right he associated all of it with me. Which makes sense I was the one riding him and doing what the trainer said. I kept asking isn't there a better way we need to correct him. She said no push forward, more leg, kick him hard, use that crop dont let him get away with it.

Against my better judgement I did all of it. Now i have this mess. It's ultimately my fault. He's my horse, I knew deep down the approach was wrong, yet ignored my instincts. So now we slid all the way back to day one, or further in my opinion. The new trainer who rode him said he's so apprehensive now, he's afraid to have anyone on his back. H'es all mixed up and confused.

What a shame. Live and learn I guess. I feel bad for him.
 
#9 ·
Im with smilie on this one. Backing (in my opinions) is one of the worst evasions to deal with. Leg on and driving aids do sometimes work, but often will send the horse farther backwards. You can have a person on the ground with a whip driving the horse forward when this occurs, but this can be dangerous for both of you if the horse is not used to being lunged with a rider aboard.
From a person who has had her horse moonwalk from X-K in the middle of a dressage test, and has been at her wits end- I tell you, this needs to get nipped in the bud asap. After the show the judged had a discussion time and she gave me the advice that as he backs- give him cues to leg yield. Send him almost into a turn on the haunches. This is significantly more difficult than backing and I am pleased to say it worked- Although I had the misfortune of trying out the method the next day when the Idiot decided to put his dancing pants on right at X, halt, Salute. By test three he took one step back, thought better of it then trotted off.

The important thing with whatever training you do is that the horse understands right away what the correction is and that the release that follows is very clear. It is a good idea to have a pair of eyes on the ground as you school your horse through this as it will center your mind and be a good reminder when you inadvertently tug on reins, close your hips too much or give unclear directions.
good luck!
 
#10 ·
Just because a saddle fitter came out doesn't always necessarily mean that the tack fits properly. Horses change, mistakes are made.

If it were my horse, I'd be using all resources to completely rule out all pain issues before focusing on other causes. Namely, you have a forum chock full of experts, and people who have a clue, and others that are learning.

I would post pictures, video, provide diet information, detailed behavior information. You're being quite vague. How is the horse refusing to go forward, ears back and backing up may not be the full story. What are you doing when the horse does that? What made the lessons bad specifically? What makes this new trainer different? When did this behavior start?
 
#11 ·
First, I want to know exactly what your hands are doing when this horse loses his impulsion. Are the reins loose or are they giving him direction or ??? Most green horses lose 'forward' because of too much rein use or improper rein use -- not aggressive whip or leg use.

When this horse went forward OK before, was it with other horses or by himself? Somehthing is not exactly adding up here.
 
#13 ·
HI ok, here are all the details..

Horse came in 4 weeks ago yesterday. He is a 5 year old standardbred, very well maintained, cared for, yet not exercised.

He's been vet checked, his feet are great, just had trim, shots, teeth floated.

He went through an adjustment period, I had two trainers to start (was too much for him) he was nipping at me, at trainers. I told everyone please no more lessons it's too soon, let me get to know my horse. Him and I began, simple stuff halt, back up, downward transitions bc he's fast! He was a really good boy, stopping nipping, would greet me at gate. I was soo happy! We started with small trail rides and built up to long one almost 4 hours because we got lost, even brought him to a bbq for Labor Day. He was sweet as pie, love this boy!

Than I decided ok time to start lessons again, he had adjusted somewhat, seemed happy. He was doing everything I was asking of him and in the ring also.

So, trainer original one I took lessons w/before i bought him she had been pulling yanking on his lead chain, smacking him if he even moved a tiny bit. Was ridiculous, he was becoming head shy. I pulled her aside said no more he's my horse your the trainer I do not want you touching him at all!

We had lessons in front ring, when he didn't want to go forward she instructed me to use the crop or dressage whip and hit him, kick him, etc. the more I did the worse he became. I said there has to be another way to correct this. He was being stubborn somewhat. Yet she said i'm telling you trust me this is the way to go. It got so intense, his head was flaring all over he actually hit me in the head with his head at one point i'm sure by accident. I had to lunge him after both lessons (said her) because he was so bad and disrespectful to me. There were exactly 3 lessons that were insane. Yet she said you can't give up, keep pushing forward. Get mad, hit him etc.

I knew in my gut this was not the right thing to do, I said why dont' I just stop calm him, make him circle as a correction and than begin again. She said no.

So, that's where we are, the next day after the last lesson I tacked him up, went to get on him his ears went back, I could feel the apprehension and he was just a hot mess. He went backwards right away, refused to even walk. the more I'd ask him to walk, loose rein, etc he'd back me up. He backed me up right into a fence and that's when I had to jump off.

The other trainer is very kind gentle person. She got on him after we lunged him and said he's messed up very apprehensive scared etc.
 
#14 ·
Okay now that doesn't sound like pain to me, just hyped up horse.
So in that session of using the whip on him (did you also use your legs in tandem or just the whip?) he learned he doesn't have to listen to your cue to go forward and instead decided he'd like to go backwards to either convince you to get off of him or because he doesn't want to work.

There's a difference in how you ask a balky horse to move forward. Your idea of stopping (stopping from him already at a halt didn't make sense to me, you mean stopped the forward cue?) and circling him will also create more problems as he still isn't moving forward just every other direction other than where you'd like him to go.

Has this new trainer ridden him yet? Did she get him to move forward?
 
#15 ·
So, the horse understands cues to move forward, right, or is this green colt never ridden before?
If that horse understands forward, does not have a pain issue, yet balks, you have to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, and follow the', 'be as gentle with a horse as possible, but Also as firm as needed, to make him a good citizen
Of course you never correct a horse in anger, no do you correct a horse that does not understand a cue in the first place-you teach him,the correct response, by the age old pressure and release from pressure, and rewarding any slight try.
However, if a horse balks, refuses to move, and truly has no pain issue, you use what is needed to get that forward.In that regard, I agree with your trainer. Usually, a horse starts to run backwards, after he first has learned that he can refuse to go forward. In other words, little things are let slip, until he takes the proverbial mile
Perhaps this trainer is abusive, as I neither saw your horse and how it reacted, or the correction, but I also know that a horse that is just apprehensive, having harsh methods used,when they need not have been, will be over reactive, up tight, ect, and t not balk.
If your horse was 'fine' before, why take lessons from this trainer?
My horses don't balk, because they never learn that habit in the first place. However, if I had a spoiled horse that balks, I would use whatever it took to get that forward.
Cheri suggested over and under with some heavy harness reins, and one can also use a crop, or legs backed up with spurs. It is also a good thing to dis engage hips, on some horses that balk, as when they are pushed, they might explode into bucking
Sorry, I don't see that association with you, as an excuse. The horse might well have your number. I see a horse that has become spoiled, unless he has a pain issue, or is not trained enough to understand 'forward'
If that is the case ( not trained), then go back to lunging or ground driving, but get that compliance to forward, versus balking and running backwards, as the horse is well on the way to becoming dangerous, JMO
 
#16 ·
Just read additional info, and i see a horse , as I first suspected, that is both lacking in training, and has learned to challenge the rider.
I think you are viewing him a bit through rose coloured glasses, reading in between the lines, from this and your other post
I also asked, if you trail rode him alone. Many horses will happily ride along with other horses, not asked to really do anything except tag along, with that rider being more of a passenger.Still waiting for that answer also.
 
#17 ·
Hi,

I"m not viewing him through rose colored glasses at all. The trainer screwed him up with her aggressive advice that i stupidly followed. New trainer is sweet, and very gentle. She works with special needs ppl at my stable. My horse isn't trained, yet I taught him the basics and verbal ques.

I've been on small trail rides alone with him and the big one with one other horse, did great. this was all before the two or three super bad lessons. I also took him on labor day to my families house two miles away, I rode him there in the street he was great. again before the 3 bad lessons.

So, today the new trainer got on him, took her time with him he was a little better... she got him to walk forward, no ears back, yet still apprehensive she said. He was waiting to get hit. She did not use whips or kicking. She got him to move forward off leg que I taught him.

So, I can't ride him until she has him moving forward into trot. Than she suggested that we begin on lunge line bc he associates me with the whips hitting etc.

I"m not going to give up on him, no way. Yet i know what I did wrong and now we are trying to correct it. I just found out today the other trainer is being fired. pretty funny huh.. i can't begin to know why :)
 
#19 ·
Glad things are working out with the new trainer. So, if he responded to leg cues, why then did he ever balk in the first place? Certainly, one always uses the lightest cue first, before ever upping the anti. Did he move forward, including into he trot, with just leg cues? If so, then certainly you should never have gone to the 'demand' mode , before having used the 'asking' mode
ALSO , if he is not yet trained, then you never should have taken him on a trail ride, because it is then like riding without brakes or steering, and you were lucky to have had those rides prove un eventful, as I would never think of riding a horse out, until I had good basics on him.
 
#20 ·
So, he is a standardbred. Was he harness raced?
How much actual re training under saddle did he have, as a harness horse certainly won't know leg cues.
Was he a rescue? Reason I ask, many rescues are very compliant at first, because they are often under weight, thus all energy is spent just with daily living.
Once good food has that horse picking up in condition, the 'true' horse comes out.
Maybe all of this is not a concern, if the new trainer is able to work him through stuff
 
#21 ·
hi he was harnass raced, he was not a rescue..privately owned. They paid 140k for him, yet he only won 3 races didn't like racing.. So all she did was trail ride him during the week, he's great on trails. I taught him halt, he had a 20 second delay when i got him :) yet now he stops on a dime.

I think that this trainer the old one, she was the one who would hit him etc. she was standing in the middle of the ring. I"m not sure why he did it to begin with. I found it odd. Which is why I said to her ok how do we fix this circle him? she responded with no kick him hard, hit him hard etc.

he is getting fed well and putting weight on since I got him. he's just been sitting out at pasture for quite sometime prior to me getting him. so he had like zero muscle. He's already looking better.

The trainer was so very wrong, yet he can be strong willed at times. He's a confident horse or was. Now he's confused and jaded my current trainer said. He's sensitive, reminds me of a thoroughbred. His skins sensitive, he's sensitive.

Today I just lunged him, he did fine, than we took a walk I groomed him and tacked him up for her.

I guess w/a green horse who at best had maybe 15 hours under saddle using the other trainers aggressive approach was nightmarish for him.

It is a shame, I felt really confident with him the past week and a half prior to this. I could tell that we were figuring it out together, he was trusting me and I him it was growing. He'd greet me at gate with his little whinny reach out so i could kiss him. Today nothing, nada. wouldn't even come up to me when i approached his paddock.
 
#23 ·
I would love to see a video of you riding a horse (not this horse). I would love to see a video of this horse being ridden as well.

In one of your posts you said, "..he's not trained.." and that could very well be all of it. A horse trained to drive in harness needs to be retrained for riding. That said, you also said he went out on trail rides...

So my question is two fold. Where is he in his training under saddle? Where are you in your training in the saddle?

I do not think this is a case of bonding and associating you with bad stuff and all that rubbish. I think this is a combination of a green rider and a green horse being a bad color combination (and maybe trainers who think they know more than they do!).

If this is a green horse who is not going forward he needs someone to get with him who really knows what they are doing. I do not think that is you.

I think this horse needs a real trainer riding him and training him (going from harness racing to riding is a large difference physically and mentally for the horse). I think you need riding lessons on a horse that is trained and tolerant. As Cherie said, where were your hands and what were they doing?

I want to know more.. where were your hands and where was your seat and your body when the shenanigans started. Most green riders get scared and do the exact wrong thing when the horse starts to misbehave.

Videos please.. show us. Without those, none of this makes ANY sense.
 
#32 ·
I would love to see a video of you riding a horse (not this horse). I would love to see a video of this horse being ridden as well.

In one of your posts you said, "..he's not trained.." and that could very well be all of it. A horse trained to drive in harness needs to be retrained for riding. That said, you also said he went out on trail rides...

So my question is two fold. Where is he in his training under saddle? Where are you in your training in the saddle?

I do not think this is a case of bonding and associating you with bad stuff and all that rubbish. I think this is a combination of a green rider and a green horse being a bad color combination (and maybe trainers who think they know more than they do!).


If this is a green horse who is not going forward he needs someone to get with him who really knows what they are doing. I do not think that is you.

I think this horse needs a real trainer riding him and training him (going from harness racing to riding is a large difference physically and mentally for the horse). I think you need riding lessons on a horse that is trained and tolerant. As Cherie said, where were your hands and what were they doing?

I want to know more.. where were your hands and where was your seat and your body when the shenanigans started. Most green riders get scared and do the exact wrong thing when the horse starts to misbehave.

Videos please.. show us. Without those, none of this makes ANY sense.

I agree that nothing really makes sense here, and I also want to know, an did aSK, how much riding has he had, being re trained from harness work?
At one point, you say 15 hours, but then you state that the old owner just trail rode this horse> So, did he have any training under saddle, far as getting leg cues ect, or did he just pack that old owner, with a group of other horses?
You say he used to bite, and can be stubborn. In another post, he would not stand to be washed, and you were worried about any correction
Also suggested a real trainer, as through tis entire thread, it seemed more like the blind leading the blind!

I also asked for that video, as the 'waters' are very murky!
 
#26 ·
Thanks! That explains a LOT. The horse needs to be trained and the owner is not up to speed on being a trainer.

I stand by my suggestion. Find a good, reputable trainer and send the horse out for 90 days while continuing challenging lessons on a school horse. Before you get your horse back from the Trainer, go out with your riding instructor and ride your horse there (if the trainer allows it) with the instructor and trainer looking on. Decide as a joint effort if your skills and the horse's training are enough for your to take him home OR take another month of lessons and another month of your horse at the trainer.

That is not the least expensive option but it certainly would be the best option to give the horse and the new owner the best chance of a long term relationship.
 
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