Pat Parelli's and Dennis Reis' position on Flooding - Page 9 - The Horse Forum
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post #81 of 90 Old 11-24-2016, 08:40 PM
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I think they can observe, recognize something is not scary from another horse,as a green horse will often just follow a seasoned horse over a tarp, But I don't believe they truly learn from each other.
I know that is a fine line, often not really distinguishable, but is still there none the less, , in my mind
We can use that desire to copy, trust a fellow herd specie's judgement, often to our advantage
A horse cannot watch another horse being trained, to perform some maneuver, and then just do it, while ridden
A horse can be tied right next to a horse that has learned how to untie himself, and luckily, not just then absorb that technique and apply it himself-good thing!
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post #82 of 90 Old 11-24-2016, 09:14 PM
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[QUOTE=Smilie;9578474)
The problem with that approach, is you are using a bribe, and I rather give a reward, AFTER the horse does a task, if I am going to use R+
I don't work on the hopes that if I expose the horse to everything possible, then that horse is de -sensitized.
I do very little de sensitizing, but a whole lot on respect, which generates trust, and so you then can get you and the horse , safely through stuff they have never encountered before

A horse might accept plastic, by eventually learning it contains a treat, but that still might not be enough, when something like what happened to Stitch (full sister to Smilie) when I was riding her. I had just gotten on her, again, out by my trailer, on a windy day.
A plastic bag blew right under her belly. You need other things besides just gradual de sensitization, and one is teaching a horse to face the object of his fear, trust you, and not try to' leave 'Dodge'[/QUOTE]
This made me think of an example of why trust is important.
I was trailering with a friend who had a slant load. My horse had never been in a slant load before. My friend started unloading the horses while I unloaded tack. She always unties her horses then let's them turn around and walk out on their own. I always back mine out. My horse started backing out, then tried to turn around in the doorway and got stuck. Fortunately he trusted me enough to get him unstuck instead of thrashing around which could have seriously hurt him.
I take precautions to avoid situations like that now, but it wasn't really a situation I could have anticipated at the time so there was really no way to desensitize against it.
Your horse has to be willing to rely on your Judgment at times like this and look to you for leadership.
I'm sure techniques like flooding have their place when used correctly, but I think something like that would undermine the foundation of trust you trying to build with your horse
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post #83 of 90 Old 11-24-2016, 10:33 PM
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Sure, they can associate reward, with some object, and thus people have also resorted to placing a treat on a tarp, for a horse that won't cross it
The problem with that approach, is you are using a bribe, and I rather give a reward, AFTER the horse does a task, if I am going to use R+
Yes, it can very easily become 'bribery'. In order to get a behaviour happening in the first place, and especially to start associating something with a 'good' emotional response, I don't think there's anything wrong with 'luring' to begin with. You have to make sure you're doing it in easy enough increments for the horse to *want* to get the treat. But once the behaviour is established, then it's important to quit bribery & just reward WHEN the horse does the task.
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post #84 of 90 Old 11-25-2016, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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I treat. I treat for counter conditioning. I treat for a reward. Sometimes I treat just because I want to and because the horse likes it.

I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. But as a reward has worked very well for me.

There is research that shows learning occurs more efficiently with treats given at any time. One suggestion is that it simply causes the horse to stay more focused on the trainer, but for what ever the reason, it does seem to help according to the studies that studied it.

Past President Regan always had a jar of Jelly Bellys on a table for meetings. His notion was that difficult decisions and difficult meetings went better with a nice taste in the mouth. Maybe that works for horses also.

Another thought (or question) occurred to me: I always have an inner feeling of affection when presenting a treat at any time for what ever reason. I wonder if the horse senses that feeling and if that has an effect also.
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post #85 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 05:31 AM
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I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. ... I always have an inner feeling of affection when presenting a treat at any time for what ever reason. I wonder if the horse senses that feeling and if that has an effect also.
I bet you have different 'inner feelings' when trying to bribe! I think horses key into the way we're feeling, our intentions, so much. And especially when trying to lure a horse into something scary, it's vital to keep that trust, that respect & honesty, I reckon. Otherwise it can come across that we're trying to con the horse into something Bad.
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post #86 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 09:54 AM
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Folks recommend singing if you are getting nervous. It wasn't long before Mia (the rather spooky mare I used to own) assumed my singing meant SHE ought to get nervous! I can fool my horse once or twice, but they always see thru me in the end.

I got better results when I'd say, "If we're going to get busted up, let's get busted up together!" Except, of course, those times when she'd reply, "I'd rather stay whole. All engines, reverse!"
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post #87 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 10:53 AM
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I am very much opposed to flooding, but have used desensitization very successfully as it was described above by Smilie, among others.

My mare was flooded using hobbles. Flooding causes the horse to shut down rather than process what is happening and accept it. As a result, when she came to me supposedly bombproof and beginner-safe, she was scared of her own shadow - quite literally. She spooked very badly twice when I was on her and I came flying off. I hired a trainer to help desensitize her and after a couple of months, she had improved tremendously, but we never flooded her. She was always on a loose lead in the paddock when she was exposed to plastic bags, a tarp, etc. so she didn't feel trapped. It took a long time to undo the damage down by previous well-meaning owners. Flooding is just a way to temporarily repress the reactiveness in a horse, but it will come out in other forms, guaranteed.
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post #88 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I treat. I treat for counter conditioning. I treat for a reward. Sometimes I treat just because I want to and because the horse likes it.

I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. But as a reward has worked very well for me.

There is research that shows learning occurs more efficiently with treats given at any time. One suggestion is that it simply causes the horse to stay more focused on the trainer, but for what ever the reason, it does seem to help according to the studies that studied it.

Past President Regan always had a jar of Jelly Bellys on a table for meetings. His notion was that difficult decisions and difficult meetings went better with a nice taste in the mouth. Maybe that works for horses also.

Another thought (or question) occurred to me: I always have an inner feeling of affection when presenting a treat at any time for what ever reason. I wonder if the horse senses that feeling and if that has an effect also.
Treats are also effective because they encourage chewing, which helps the horse release the tightness in its jaw. If you have a very nervous mare like mine was, who clenches her teeth when she's nervous, the chewing is a way to help them relax - so it has a lot of benefits!
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post #89 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 11:04 AM
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I think you have to differentiate between what's a bribe and what's just creating a positive association with something
I've seen lots of horses that were very terribly nervous about being on a trailer or horsebox completely turned around by putting their feed in it and then leaving them to figure it out for themselves - I don't think the horse's saw that as bribery but as the trailer not being a scary place but a place where good things happened
If you put a treat in a plastic bag and make a really big deal of rustling it around when you get the treat out the horse learns to associate that bag and the strange noises with something good and not something terrifying
I will say though, if I'm in a win or lose situation and bribery is the last option on my list of things to try I'll use it
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post #90 of 90 Old 11-26-2016, 11:08 AM
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I think, finding the 'balance', as in the thread I posted, through experience, is what in the end, creates a willing , confident horse


l place alink to that thread here, as it has points very applicable


https://www.horseforum.com/horse-trai...alance-735818/
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