Scooting/running horse - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
 71Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 10:56 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,677
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Chamberlin on Stargazing
Riding and Schooling Horses

One rule which is unchanging in regard to the action of the rider's hands, but not in regard to their position, is as follows: Whenever the horse places his head in a position other than the correct one, the hands are moved to where they can increase tension on the bit and make his mouth uncomfortable. In these cases, they must be so placed that the horse cannot possible escape the bit's tension for a fraction of a second, until the rider permits it. When he ultimately seeks to avoid discomfort by putting his head in the correct position - and then only - the hands must soften immediately...In the first instances, it is better to let the reins go slack when rewarding the horse...

...take the case of a stargazer...Most riders attempt to lower the head by carrying their hands low beside the horse's neck and futilely trying to pull the head down. The horse, by tipping the head a little further to the rear, can momentarily escape the tension of the reins...he will, of course, continue throwing his head as long as he succeeds in escaping the annoyance of the bit, even though it be only for a moment. In other words, he is being taught by the momentary reward he receives, that his procedure is correct.

The correct and logical way to lower the head of such a horse, is to hold the reins short enough (and no shorter), so that it is impossible for him, by any means, to escape the bit for a single moment. The hands, instead of being lowered in an attempt to pull the horse's head down, are raised, so that, as usual, the forearm and the rein make a straight line.

The tension on the rein must become greater than the normal feel. The hands are more or less fixed, and vibrations may be simultaneously employed, all of which increases the horse's discomfort. The legs compel him to continue at the gait at which he is moving, while the hands steadily hold the head in its elevated position. Sooner or later, he becomes tired and uncomfortable in this strained position. Also, he soon discovers that the usual throwing of the head permits no escape from the bit; and begins a search for a new way. Finally he will endeavor to lower it to a more comfortable and natural position. Instantly the hand softens to permit the lowering.
That has worked well for me on the couple times I used it. Neither was a confirmed head tosser/star gazer. A near word-for-word quote is found in the last US Cavalry manual of equitation.

However, it also is important to think about WHY the horse isn't relaxed with the bit. Or saddle. Or approach to riding.

"I will say that it seems to me this mare is uncomfortable somewhere. It could be a misalignment, saddle fit or the rider's hands. One thing for sure she has learnt a way to fight and unless the rider stops fighting back it is a no win situation for both." - @Foxhunter

This.

Something I've come to think of as a fundamental principle is that sometimes a rider needs to give up control in order to gain control.

Quote:
...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)
Find the source of resistance. Then look for the "back door" rather than trying to force open the front door.
loosie likes this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
post #12 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 11:47 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: eh?
Posts: 2,432
• Horses: 2
The last thing I'd do is run this horse. This is not the kind who will get tired and quit.

How often is she being ridden?

She does not sound broke to the aids nor does she know how to chill. Can you walk on a loose rein anywhere? I would start doing slow, simple work with her. Lots of walking in the pasture, walk trot transitions, no more than half a dozen steps. Do obstacle work to get her brain in gear. Walk over poles, around pylons, ect. Mares need to be mentally engaged.

I would also try to eliminate the lunging. You don't want her to be getting any fitter than necessary and running on the lunge line will do just that. Perhaps try some ground work exercises to engage the mind instead of the body.
ApuetsoT is online now  
post #13 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 12:29 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,140
• Horses: 3
OP, let me first say that I think you would benefit the greatest by finding a trainer to work with and take lessons from. I think most of your problems most likely stem from lack of correct timing.

If a cue is released too soon or too late, the horse doesn't correlate the correct answer to the request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
So, basically, down to my question. How do I get her listening to me in an open paddock? How do I make her stop running away on me with her head in the air?
and how do I get her to curve into the turns I'm asking of her rather than pushing her whole body across?
How? TRAINING.

Personally, I would take this horse all the way back to square one. Act like she's never been handled. Start from scratch like you would a colt. It sounds like she has some serious holes in her training that have never been properly fixed. She doesn't understand your cues and/or she doesn't want to listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
bolts or throws her head up as soon as you take the pressure off the reins
This suggests to me that she hasn't been taught to actually properly give to the bit. And suggests to me that you often release your cues too late when she tries to give you a correct response - she gets frustrated, and doesn't know what you want, so just ignores you completely and takes advantage of when you "let her loose".

Sure, it does take a horse lots of time and training to learn to "self-carry" their head in an acceptable place, but if she's immediately throwing her head once you "let go" of her, then I would say she's never really learned how to be soft to the bit and only wants to fight it and/or evade it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
I lunge her for 20 minutes before I ride, and that definitely seems to help.
What exactly do you mean when you say lunging? (I only ask because it means different things to different people.) Please be more specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
When she scoots/bolts/jumps/does anything stupid, I'll stop her, back her up, make her wait for a few seconds and then continue on again.
If you think about this, what exactly are you teaching her?

You are teaching your horse to stop and back up ..... when you didn't necessarily want her to......

If you want to teach her to listen to you, then you have to teach her to listen to you. Instead of stopping and backing her, you should continue to try to get her to do what you were originally doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
My trouble is though, when I'm trying to trot and canter (particularly canter) in a large paddock as opposed to a small arena/round yard, she'll run for all she's worth. She's extremely head strong,
Again, if she's got holes in her training, they are going to be much more obvious when you get out of a smaller area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlea Warlea View Post
and turning her in circles causes her to scoot inwards on a diagonal, rather than actually curving into the turn if that makes sense? I'm doing all the right things, and using my inside leg to push her body out while I turn her in, which works when she's engaged and listening, but is falling on deaf ears when she's in this psycho mindset.
You need to figure out a way to MAKE her listen. The more you "nag" the more it falls on deaf ears. So make your cues mean something. Ask nicely once, then ENFORCE if it doesn't happen.

But again, you have to have the appropriate timing. If you are releasing your cue too early or too late, she's not going to make the connection.

I do still think you need to go back to square one with this horse and teach her how to correctly respond to a cue, but I do think you would benefit greatly by finding a trainer to help you. Because they can watch you in person and give you feedback on your timing and/or show you in person. Very hard to do that over the internet.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.
beau159 is offline  
post #14 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 12:43 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,140
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by NavigatorsMom View Post
Funny enough, what actually worked was letting him go and then pushing him on when he thought it was time to stop.
With this particular horse that the OP describes I would NOT recommend this. Based on the description, I think that would make the situation much worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmshiro View Post

Oh, for the giraffe head - just lower and widen your hands (next to the shoulder blades) and keep them there. You may need a lot of upper body strength, but posing an unyielding resistance against which the horse pulls is better than your applying a correction, which may end up in yanking...especially after you got sufficiently frustrated.
I disagree with this recommendation. Giving a horse (that doesn't know how to give to pressure) a "solid" force with no give on the reins is not going to help the horse. Because, you don't give the proper TIMING with proper release. The horse needs to have release to know what the correct behavior was and to learn how to give to the bit. I just see this turning into a pulling match between the horse and the OP, based on the information given thus far.

This is a reason I am NOT a fan of tying a horse head around, for example. Sure, the horse learns they won't win a pulling match with themselves, but it does not teach them how to be soft with a subtle rein cue from the rider, because they have no "levels" of release when tied around.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
This I 110% disagree with. If you set your hands low when her head goes up then you are trying to use force to get her to lower and when it comes to strength she will win every time.

When a horse wants to carry its head up high then I will raise my hands so they are level with my shoulders thus keeping the horse's head up preferably higher than it wants to carry it. This is done whilst they are moving forward at a trot or canter. It doesn't take very long before they want to lower their head. I will keep it up for a few strides longer and then allow a release on the reins.
I agree with Foxhunter that if you "match" your hand posture to the horse, it does seem to work better as you make progress. So for a very high headed horse, you don't want to start with your hands at your knees (for example). It's going to be more effective (and easier for the rider) to teach the horse to give if you put your hands a bit higher, and then give/take as needed to teach the horse softness. As the horse's head comes down as they learn, so do your hands.
loosie, sarahfromsc and Yogiwick like this.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.
beau159 is offline  
post #15 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 01:09 PM
Foal
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: missouri
Posts: 123
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
When a horse wants to carry its head up high then I will raise my hands so they are level with my shoulders thus keeping the horse's head up preferably higher than it wants to carry it. This is done whilst they are moving forward at a trot or canter. It doesn't take very long before they want to lower their head. I will keep it up for a few strides longer and then allow a release on the reins.

It isn't long before that when they put their head up and the rider raises their hands the best thing to do is lower before it is held over high.
I find this fascinating. All the horses I've owned have been "head held high breeds" so I don't ever have the head too high problem. But what about the reverse? Since you have had success with a too high horse, do you think the opposite technique would work for the too low horse?
ducky1234 is offline  
post #16 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 02:13 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW UK
Posts: 14,568
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducky1234 View Post
I find this fascinating. All the horses I've owned have been "head held high breeds" so I don't ever have the head too high problem. But what about the reverse? Since you have had success with a too high horse, do you think the opposite technique would work for the too low horse?
No, that has to come from driving it from behind.

From your elbow through hands reins and to the bits should be a straight line. So if a horse is low with its head then your hands, to maintain that line would be lower.
beau159 and ducky1234 like this.
Foxhunter is offline  
post #17 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 03:09 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW UK
Posts: 14,568
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmshiro View Post
It's how I just taught a QH to round and extend his trot rather than breaking into a canter. As I said, you need upper-body strength to hold this, but if you are secured in the saddle, he'll only pull you deeper into the saddle...and I held his head with strong, but steady, contact with my arms out at a 45 angle.
.
Strength shouldn't come into it.

I fail to,see how, if a horse is fighting to get his head high no matter where your hands are he is not going to pull you deeper into the saddle.

I have retrained many OTTBs, probably more an most members here. The ex steeplechasers are not usually a problem as they are older and wiser and have lead a very different life to the flat racers.

Majority of flat racers are very hyped up. They are anticipating the go button majority of the time. They have learned to balance against the rider's hands and will search for that strong contact, often getting in a panic when it isn't there so will do as the OPs horse is doing. They aren't use to riders legs being on their sides and haven't a clue what moving away from the lag means.

They have to be taught, not from scratch which is impossible as they have learned to much. They have to be reeducated in a very calm and passive way. I allow them to seek the hard contact, when they can't find it they often panic into going faster the rider, and this is one of the hardest things to learn, is to do nothing other than guide them onto an ever decreasing circle so they have to slow of their own choice.
beau159 likes this.
Foxhunter is offline  
post #18 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 03:28 PM
Started
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NW Connecticut
Posts: 2,313
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by beau159 View Post
Giving a horse (that doesn't know how to give to pressure) a "solid" force with no give on the reins is not going to help the horse.
It's exactly how you teach a horse to flex or to back up. Watch Buck Brannaman's video on "backing up" and "softening". Watch Clinton Anderson's "flexing to the halter". You hold (a.k.a. "solid force") until the horse figures out what you want it to do and gives to the pressure; then you release pressure. Sure, it's more difficult in motion, but given that I just did it successfully, and that this is an established training principle, I'm not understanding the resistance.

The objection seems to be, "But if you do it wrong, it's not going to work."
mmshiro is offline  
post #19 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 04:06 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 46,807
• Horses: 2
Using rigid downward pull to they to deal with a giraffe headed horse is only going to result in more brace , more resistance and muscle tension. It is wrong. Just wrong.
beau159, jaydee and SteadyOn like this.
tinyliny is offline  
post #20 of 36 Old 02-20-2018, 05:06 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,140
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmshiro View Post
It's exactly how you teach a horse to flex or to back up. Watch Buck Brannaman's video on "backing up" and "softening". Watch Clinton Anderson's "flexing to the halter". You hold (a.k.a. "solid force") until the horse figures out what you want it to do and gives to the pressure; then you release pressure. Sure, it's more difficult in motion, but given that I just did it successfully, and that this is an established training principle, I'm not understanding the resistance.

The objection seems to be, "But if you do it wrong, it's not going to work."
You described planting your hands by the horse's shoulders, and holding the reins there with sheer strength until the horse gives in. Your first post said absolutely nothing about release of rein pressure, and that is the part that was most concerning and will create issues for the OP if he/she follows that.

That is not how you teach a horse to flex to the bit, and that is not how Buck or Clinton do it. They're not planting their hands by the horse's shoulder. They're fluid and they are adapting and moving constantly with the horse, based on what the horse needs.

Not to mention, if the horse really wants to get into a pulling match with you, they ARE going to win. They are bigger and stronger. If you are getting into a pulling match, you are asking more of the horse than he is ready to do. Progress should be made in small steps to set the horse up for success.
Golden Horse and sarahfromsc like this.

∞*˚ Βгįťţαňγ ˚*∞
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.

Last edited by beau159; 02-20-2018 at 05:12 PM.
beau159 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Running martingale or breastplate with running attachment BreezeyBee Horse Tack and Equipment 16 03-22-2017 07:16 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome