The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Some issues with new horse

5K views 34 replies 10 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Hi there! This is my first time posting on this forum, but I have friends who have asked questions using this site, and everyone was very nice and helpful. So, I've decided to come forward with my own little problem.

I am a moderately experienced horseback rider (21 years old, and have been working with horses for a few years), and I recently purchased a little draft-mix named Rosie. I am very fond of her -- she is dapple grey with some feathering on her lower legs, and she has a great temperament for the most part. No biting, kicking, or bucking/rearing.

However, she is deeply, deeply stubborn, and I have cycled through a series of worsening behavioral issues. Like most horses, she wants to get back to the barn & her herdmates as soon as possible. So, she'll act up at the start of the ride and act like an angel on the way back.

At first, her rebellions were pretty mild and easy to handle, but she's gradually increased the severity of her misbehaviors. At first, she would try and walk me into tree branches or scrape my leg against fenceposts, or just balk and zig-zag when I asked her to move forward.

I had a more experienced friend ride her the other day. She had some problems at first, but she had a firm hand and straightened things out quickly.

I got on today, and followed her advice to stop the balking problem, but Rosie escalated after that. She took off at a canter multiple times, tried to spin around and dump me, and took off in the other direction. I didn't feel frightened or overwhelmed at any point, but she refused to listen to me and completely ignored my attempts to turn her around in a circle/stop her.

This culminated when she finally ran under a tree branch she's scraped me off on before. I grabbed the branch and swung off, but by this point I had been fighting her for a while and she was only getting worse. I didn't feel I could continue productively or safely, so I decided it's best to call it quits and ask for some advice.

Someone I know immediately suggested a harsher bit (I am using a soft bit, which was recommended to me by the man that trained her.) However, I'm hesitant to switch, since I've always heard that the bit is rarely the problem.

Here is a SIMILAR bit to the one I'm using. Mine is similar to a Pelham bit, with the optional lever action. Forgive me if I'm not SUPER knowledgeable about bits, I've always used very simple ones:



It's also worth mentioning that Rosie is 5 years old. I'm well aware that a number of these issues are linked to her age and green-ness, along with a lack of respect for me as her rider. I just want to make sure I'm taking the right approach to handling these problems.

While I'm a fairly confident rider, I know I have a lot to learn about training horses. Thank you in advance for all of your advice, kindness, and understanding.
 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
I think you might do some searches on this site, and on YT about the 'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult' concept. In your case, it would be allowing your mare to return to the barn area, but having her work hard there, then inviting her to leave that area toward the 'ride out' direction, and if she goes that way, allowing her to rest or stop, or go slowly. When/if she turns back to barn, you LET her. but, as you get closer , you turn in circles and make her trot briskly. You can even use your legs to slap her sides a bit during this work, so that it's less easy for her, and the instant she leaves that area, your legs get all nice and quiet.


the idea being that eventually she will cue in that returning to the barn means choosing (yes, SHE chooses) more work, while heading out gets her less work.
 
#3 ·
Welcome to the forum!
While I’m not a fan of all of his training, I have used Clinton Anderson techniques for things like trailer loading successfully. He has a bunch of videos on youtube and herd bound issue is one of them. Like tinyliny mentioned, more work at the barn and less work away from it. Horses don’t like to work more than they have to. Also since she’s new to you, it’s prob a good idea to establish a relationship on the ground first. So round pen and just developing mutual communication.

You can also try to bringIng a few carrots with you On rides or otherwise. And when she is attentive and listens, you can cue her with a word of your choice like treat, and then give a piece of carrot. I did that and still do with my horse. She’s just a baby so it’ll take time to bring her along.
 
#4 ·
Just for laughs . . . .. I used to treat my lease horse, from the saddle, when he was just being a good boy. I had no place to carry carrot bits, so stuffed then down my bra. It got to the point that all I had to do was reach up to pull on a bras strap, adjust my helmet , rub an eye or even wave to someone and my horse would see me reaching toward what he thought was the 'boob carrots', and he'd come to an abrupt stop! I had to quit that . But I always treated just after mounting up, and at end of ride, before walking down the driveway to the barn.
 
#5 ·
That's so funny tinyliny! I love it!

Sorry this is going astray a bit, but..........

When I trained my youngster, out trail riding, if the phone rang I would stop him and answer the phone. And give him a piece of carrot for standing patiently, then resume our ride. It got so he would stop and look back at me if the phone rang......like, "Are you going to get that?"

I carry treats in a horn bag and one time I was riding a neighbor's mule and I was rather shocked to realize the mule was so flexible with her neck, she could reach around and touch the saddle bags hanging on the saddle horn. I was like WOW, I never had a horse that could do that.
 
#6 ·
I can't find that clip now, but Warwick Schiller had a video where he would ride a few meters out of the gate and turn around before the horse decided that he doesn't want to go further. Get back to the gate and turn around for a few more meters. He would repeat the process many times, only adding a meter or two on each trip. Eventually, at the furthest point he planned to go, he would let the horse graze (on command). It looked peaceful and easy but I haven't tried it (my mare isn't barn sour).
 
#31 ·
Used this technique this morning and it worked great ! ReRun did an unasked for rollback multiple times last time as I rode him from the barn to the arena and after entering the arena. So, today I did exactly what you said above, and NO unplanned 180s to turn and avoid going forward. Saved me from having to argue with him , which I won every time last time, but it was a more pleasant ride for me to take the time and end up with a cooperative horse. Thanks!
 
#7 ·
To me the biggest issue that stands out and makes the situation unsafe is your lack of ability to steer the horse.

I firmly believe that stopping or slowing a horse come secondary to your ability to steer the horse and control where they go. Any horse can bolt in the wrong circumstances, and if you cannot then steer them toward safer footing or away from a busy road, you are in much worse shape than if they are bolting with you but you can head them up a steep hill, or away from barbed wire.

I wouldn't even concern yourself with the balking issue until you had worked quite a bit with the horse on becoming easy to steer in any circumstance. Draft horses can have strong necks and I've worked with a couple that needed work learning to turn lightly before they were safe to ride.

In order for steering to be safe, the horse must know how to follow their head and neck with the rest of their body with the degree of turn you are requesting. In other words, you don't want the horse to learn to have a rubbery neck you can pull around to your leg, but the rest of the horse keeps going straight. You have to show the horse that at any speed, the degree of turn relates to the amount of bend you are asking for. It should feel like the horse is following his head with his body around the curve.

I believe a horse needs to be able to follow the rein around circles in a variety of sizes, in both directions, at the walk and trot before being ridden out in the open. The horse needs to respond softly, not stiffly. I would practice this a whole lot with the horse before riding out.

If you cannot get the horse to turn in the bit you are using, even after lots of practice, then I might consider using a different bit. However, I've never known a bit to be the issue with turning. Slowing or stopping, yes, but turning is something the horse can learn to do in any bit. It just takes practice.

Once you have good steering with the horse and can direct her movement, you can address the balking. If your friend was successful by just being firm, you could go that route. My usual way with a horse that is very persistent even if I am firm is to just calmly show the horse that they are going to have to do what I am asking. Since that is impossible from the saddle, every time they begin to slow and stop I hop off, lead them for a while, then get back on. If they balk again, I do it again. Usually I carry a crop and when I am leading, I make them trot. After several rides they learn that they can either walk nicely while I am riding, and I won't bug them, or else they can balk and I'll jump off and make them trot forward, which is harder.
 
#8 ·
Hi & welcome to the forum!

First, have you got a trainer or instructor, or very experienced friend who can help? With only a bit of written info, no eyes there to see what's actually going on, can only give general sort of advice here, which may or may not be relevant.

However, she is deeply, deeply stubborn, ... horses, she wants to get back to the barn & her herdmates as soon as possible. So, she'll act up at the start of the ride
Stubborn means the horse has learned to outpersist it's human. So, whether it's you, who have inadvertently 'trained' this by perhaps being inconsistent, ineffective, or previous owners, to teach a horse not to be 'stubborn' means ensuring the 'tantrum' or braciness or whatever, NEVER works for the horse, and what you're asking does work - it is easy, clear and is rewarded instantly.

'Herdbound or barnsour' are a couple of lables for this first behaviour. Yeah, unfortunately common. Means the horse doesn't want to go out with you, be ridden, leave his mates, whatever.

First thing first I think it's important to analyse *why* before working out a solution. Try to address the reason, change the attitude, not just the behavioural 'symptom'. Eg is the horse new to you, new to going out, not been out much alone? Eg. Is there any fear, lack of trust involved? Or is the horse hurting - saddle fit, back, mouth, etc? So that she's trying to tell you it hurts, until she is resigned to it. Or her previous or current association with going out/being ridden is not pleasant, so she 'tries it on'...

So you can hopefully see there's a lot more to it than just 'correcting'/punishing 'bad' behaviour, and sometimes punishment is not appropriate & will only make matters worse.

At first, her rebellions were pretty mild and easy to handle, but she's gradually increased the severity of her misbehaviors.
What's causing her to get worse? How are you dealing with it?
She had some problems at first, but she had a firm hand and straightened things out quickly.
Sounds like she has learned that this behaviour is working with you, or you're doing something that causes Rosie to 'shout' at you about... & It's working so she will do it more & harder!
before. I grabbed the branch and swung off, but by this point I had been fighting her for a while and she was only getting worse. I didn't feel I could continue productively or safely, so I decided it's best to call it quits and ask for some advice.
Good job I reckon. People will say 'always get straight back on if you're bucked off' and 'never bail/let the horse win' but my feeling is safety first - if you aren't in control, aren't able to be effective, then it's only a matter of time before the excrement hits the turbine and you get hurt.

From a training perspective though, her 'tantrums' are working, so she will get worse & worse. Of course, depends why she's doing it too - pay to check/treat physical probs etc first. But I'd honestly consider whether she really is the horse for you, and if so, I'd really suggest giving her to a good trainer for a time, to evaluate & hopefully get her safer, before you attempt to ride her again
Someone I know immediately suggested a harsher bit (I
Nope. It's not the bit and depending on... Lots, it could just make matters worse. In fact, if she came to me like that, I'd 'restart' her from scratch in a halter first, to ensure she learned to 'follow a feel' from reins without fear of pain from the bit.
 
#10 ·
@gottatrot I agree that the horse must know how to steer. However, there is a difference between “I don’t know what you want me to do” and “I know perfectly well what you want me to do but I don’t want to do it”. I’ve met plenty of horses of the second ilk. Some of those horses even have their little preemptive maneuvers to make it difficult for the rider to even ask. Seeing that OPs horse used to be fine, and that it actively tries to scrape the rider off on branches - I would guess the horse isn’t confused about aids.

I rode a trail horse which was a bit balky at a certain spot. She would stop and anything the rider did was interpreted as “walk back”. I tried reaching down for her bit in an effort to turn her, as soon as I shifted my weight, she would reverse. Give leg - reverse. Nudge with my seat - reverse. I had to get off and lead her a little bit past that spot and she would be perfect for the next 15km. The horse obviously knew her job very well since she did wonderfully everywhere else on the trail and she’s been doing it for ten years. She just didn’t want to - at that particular spot.

I could be mistaken about OPs horse but the overall story paints a picture of a horse who’s perfectly capable of understanding what the rider wants - it’s just giving them a finger and asserting their own will on the rider.
 
#12 ·
[MENTION=20613]I could be mistaken about OPs horse but the overall story paints a picture of a horse who’s perfectly capable of understanding what the rider wants - it’s just giving them a finger and asserting their own will on the rider.
Could well be. But while its a very possible picture, I got a bit of a different one. Yes, the horse is indeed learning to 'give op the finger' but this horse is 5yo, green, owner is only 'somewhat' experienced, horse is newish and guessing last owner/trainer was probably the first & horse has limited experience with different people & riding style. And horses don't generalise well either, so just because she may 'know' something well with her previous owner, doesn't mean she knows what's what with a new rider, new situation. So I'd say lack of training & developing a good relationship & *2 way* communication is at least a big part of the cause.
 
#16 ·
It's really hard to give specific advice without observing your situation at hand and the approach to your horse's behavior could be different upon the situation. So, I think Loosie has already suggested it, but I would highly recommend having someone experienced to help you working with this horse and by that, I don't just mean a good rider, but someone experienced in training out issues such as bolting and that could eventually teach you how to properly deal with the behavior.

You are wise to stop where you are since the issue is getting worse. It may not scare you now, but I can tell you that I am still dealing with the aftermath of an injury now (years after) after falling off a horse who bolted. I have friends who are dealing with other injuries and now are in a lot of pain because of it. Many of them, who are trainers, will not deal with bolting horses anymore because of it. The longer this goes on, the worse the behavior will get, and the deeper it will stick. I think that at this point, you do need someone else to help you evaluate the situation and make a plan to fix it. This may mean you taking a step back for a little while, while a trainer deals with the worst of the behavior and installs a new 'normal' and/or it may mean a trainer teaching you what to do, when to do it and how to do it.
 
#19 ·
Thank you so much, tinyliny! I am very fond of Rosebud! She's a darling little horse, and I really like the guy that trained/owned her before me -- he obviously did a very good job. I just need to keep his lessons fresh on her mind and make sure Rosie doesn't push me around!

Here's a picture of the little lady -- her previous owner kept her mane hogged and her tail short, but I plan on growing them out. There's something so nice about a dapple grey with a full mane/tail!



I've never met a more confident horse; she'll follow me anywhere and she doesn't spook at anything. Cars passing, motorbikes, neighborhood dogs barking or trotting at her heels... a man even revved a chainsaw next to the road where I was riding her, and she hardly flicked her ears!

I'm always alert and ready for potential dangers while riding her, juuuust in case she finds something to be afraid of, but I haven't found anything yet. She gets pensive when presented with new things, like noisy water under a bridge or a flock of geese, but she addresses everything with a thoughtful calmness before moving forward.

I really love her!! I'm excited to get to know her better and work with her.
 
#22 ·
> So what were you working her at the barn for?

Oh, sorry loosie, I don't think I was super clear in my update -- I started the ride fully intending to treat it like a normal outing, but she was fussy and kept trying to pull me back to the barn. So, I let her walk back and asked her to do various things there (turn around, walk this way, walk that way, etc.) until she was paying attention to me, being responsive, and not trying to trot back to the gate. That entire process just happened to take a while.

I do have a question though, how do I make taking her out into a happy thing? She would much rather be in the pasture with her mates than saddled up with someone on her back, and I don't really blame her. I spend a fair amount of time just hanging out with my horses (they essentially live in my backyard), and I'm working on building a bond with Rosie, but I'm not quite sure how to go about the whole "make work fun" thing.
 
#24 ·
I started the ride fully intending to treat it like a normal outing, but she was fussy and kept trying to pull me back to the barn. So, I let her walk back and asked her to do various things there (turn around, walk this way, walk that way, etc.) until she was paying attention to me, being responsive, and not trying to trot back to the gate. That entire process just happened to take a while.
So this is sort of by way of answering the second bit too... If your horse is obviously 'fussy' about you riding her out, I'd not go that far as yet, and if all the 'preliminaries' were going well & she were 'fussy' about leaving the yard(or whatever), then I'd make things as easy as possible for her to get right -so you aren't taking ages, but each 'session' can be just a few minutes at a time, rather than a 'drill'. I might only ask her to take just one step in the direction I wanted, before turning her back *before* she got fussy. Build up to stuff gradually & set up 'win/win' situations, so she gets lots of experience of being rewarded for stuff you want.

And that last bit - what do you do to reward her for what you DO get? I'd take every opportunity to use both negative reinforcement(removal of 'pressure') and positive reinforcement(give Good Stuff) for every little thing she gave me. So, for eg your getting her to turn etc until she starts listening to you, as soon as I got that, I would have reinforced it big time, with positives, but also with negatives - quitting hassling her & stopping her going where she wants. If she doesn't enjoy being ridden, then I'd get off right then.

not quite sure how to go about the whole "make work fun" thing.
IMO positive reinforcement, not just negative, is a huge key for this - ensure the horse gets Good Stuff(be that food, scratches, going to see a mate, whatever), whenever possible/appropriate. I ensure horses are first happy & willing to go out with me first on lead, before riding. I make sure being with me is not a chore, is not 'work', but is fun, play. Ask your horse to go from 'point to point' & she gets a reward at each point. Take her out to go graze, meet a friend, splash in a river(if it's hot), etc.

NO horse really wants to leave his mates and go out.
Perhaps 'NO' horse in your experience. And yes, as horses are generally trained just with negative reinforcement & punishment, this is indeed unfortunately the norm. But it doesn't have to be. And personally, I'm into horses because I love them, enjoy their company, and I honestly wouldn't be too happy, probably wouldn't ever ride, if I felt that they could not enjoy my company too.

So, it may sound abominable, but it comes down to making things other than going WITH us feel bad. the result is that going WITH us feels good.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree & honestly feel it is this attitude about horse training that causes that 'block' in people thinking horses can't enjoy people. Because the best they usually get is cessation of unpleasantness(negative reinforcement). Their 'reward' is a backhanded 'it won't be so horrible if you toe the line'(which may make it the 'better evil' but it doesn't equal doing it feels 'good'). People focus on 'correcting' the Wrong behaviour all the time, rarely focus on rewarding the Right stuff - and the attitude that goes with the actual behaviour is perhaps more important. Setting him up in this way will only cause him to prefer to be anywhere but with his human.
 
#23 ·
I will now place myself here, seperate from a lot of posters by saying that NO horse really wants to leave his mates and go out. There are a few things you can do to make it acceptable, such as allowing them time to graze (on the lead) in good places, on the way to being saddled up, etc.

But, for the most part, they have no where near the interest in working/riding that we do. So, In MY Opinion, trying to make riding them nice is not effective on it's own.
Because horses live in the moment, not the whole ride, we just need to make the 'going out ' direction feel good, and the 'going back direction' feel less good. It's that simple.


So, it may sound abominable, but it comes down to making things other than going WITH us feel bad. the result is that going WITH us feels good.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I will now place myself here, seperate from a lot of posters by saying that NO horse really wants to leave his mates and go out. There are a few things you can do to make it acceptable, such as allowing them time to graze (on the lead) in good places, on the way to being saddled up, etc....

...So, it may sound abominable, but it comes down to making things other than going WITH us feel bad. the result is that going WITH us feels good.
As best I can tell, all three of my horses like going out TOGETHER. bandit and Trooper are happy to go out together, although Cowboy then HATES being left behind. But the reality is I'm the only one left at home now who likes riding, so Bandit & I need to go out together or not at all.

We've worked hard on it last fall, and then started again this spring. Bandit is....OK with going out alone with me. It is NOT one of the great thrills of his life and I agree tinyliny: Nothing I do will make going out with ME preferable to hanging out with the other horses. The best I can do is make it "OK".

He is kind of like me when I go jogging. The first half-mile is "Why am I doing this? This is SOOOO not me!" The second half-mile is, "I guess this isn't TOO awful!" From there on, well...Bandit doesn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy a run, but he gets down to work and acts very agreeable. He's learning confidence in himself and reliance on me. He's a better horse for it and I'm becoming a better rider because of it. But at best, it is an acceptable thing to do for him. He's just not that in to me! And honestly, why should he?

But I don't try to make getting home "bad". He is going to view being with his buddies in a safe place with food as preferable to going out solo with me. Period. If I beat the tar out of him when we got home, it would only make me a psycho who freaks out about getting home. So no way am I going to make getting home "bad". Instead, I make it clear that getting home is something we do on my schedule or not at all. That "Quiet Persistence" is what has resulted in him strolling home.

For the OP's sake, I'll include this quote from Tom Roberts in "The Young Horse":
It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:

“That will profit you – that will profit you not.”

These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.

“To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.

It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that.

Quiet Persistence​
“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.

We persist. We quietly persist with our demands.

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horses seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse without punishing him.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.
In every training challenge I've encountered, that remains the best advice I've ever found in print!

...People focus on 'correcting' the Wrong behaviour all the time, rarely focus on rewarding the Right stuff...Setting him up in this way will only cause him to prefer to be anywhere but with his human.
I don't believe in "If you don't do what I want, I will make your life suck!" But it is pretty hard to make it FUN for Bandit to go out solo with me.








There is no water. The terrain is tough. It is tough on me when I'm on foot. There are a few places he can safely run, and he likes a short run well enough, but not enough to make up for leaving his herd behind. The ground is rocky and we do a lot of off trail work - which means dealing with cactus. And predators. Coyotes, yesterday. He accepts I'm pretty good at bringing him back alive but he's also smart enough to notice he wouldn't have to meet any predators if we didn't go out at all. He likes some exercise but....nope. He just doesn't view going into danger and working hard as being enjoyable, and I'm not charming enough to change his mind. He now considers it ACCEPTABLE and I think that is as good as it will get. Unless we move to Prescott AZ or Richfield Utah...
 
#32 ·
I agree that most horses like being out in the field relaxing with their buddies better than working.
But that's not always true. There can be things that are more positive about going out than staying in, and those can be different for individual horses. This is why it's important to know your horse.

My last horse actually enjoyed riding out alone, and whenever I got in the saddle her ears would go up and she would get very serious, going into work mode. She had this built in work ethic, and also was interested in seeing new places.

My two horses right now are very similar in some aspects. Both are very food motivated, both are athletic so don't really mind working, but there needs to be something in it for them or they don't really want to. Both feel less safe when out alone, and if they are in a scary environment they are either reluctant to go, or want to rush through it.

With these two horses, if I want them to be happy working, I can provide them another horse to go with. This makes it interesting and less scary. Both are food motivated, so I also can work them toward a place where they can stop and eat, which makes it pleasant for them.

Examples of ways to make working more positive than staying home:
If the home field or paddock is eaten down, and you can ride the horse toward an end goal which is a lush field.
If a horse enjoys running with a friend, and you meet somewhere you can canter along with another horse.
If a horse likes water, and it is hot, and you bring them to a body of water to let them splash and drink or swim.

Even if you can't make going out more positive than staying home, you can make it more pleasant for a horse by understanding what they like or dislike. For example, some horses are comforted by doing a certain pattern or routine, for a certain length of time, knowing they will do the work and then be done. Other horses absolutely hate going around in circles or patterns, and need you to do something different each day, or at least do it in a variety of places or ways. If I have a horse that gets bored easily but still needs training I'll do things like take them for a walk one day, ride alone in a field another, ground drive another, ride again but out on a trail with a friend.
Some horses prefer long walks, others prefer trotting for distances. It's easy to tell if a horse enjoys the work. They'll be calm and willing when they're doing it, and easy to catch in the field. It they are reluctant and becoming difficult to catch, they don't like it.
 
#33 ·
@gottatrot . . such a horse, as you described, wouldn't likely offer the barn sour behavior the OP's horse did.

STill , I always appreciate and admire how you approach things from making it very 'horse friendly'. When they need to run, you let it happen. When they need some direction, you figure out something to put in front of them.. I think that is always the best way to approach horses.
 
#34 ·
I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to say this thread has hosted some very helpful discussion, and you guys are very well-spoken! It was a joy to read, and I'll be bookmarking this so I can look back on it. It's refreshing to see training discussions aimed around making sure the horse is comfortable and confident, instead of just obedient.

(As for me and Rosie, we're doing well! I've found that she's very responsive to getting her necked rubbed as a reward, and I've been going out periodically to take her on grazing walks, which makes her more enthusiastic to see me & leave the pasture. I've only had her for a month, so I'm still figuring out her personality, but she's genuinely such a nice little horse -- albeit very aloof!)
 
#35 ·
-- albeit very aloof!)
Ah, that will likely change too, if she learns that you're not just someone who's going to make her do stuff, but she can trust you & enjoy your company.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top