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Stubborn, rude, disrespectful, not responsive to pressure

5K views 22 replies 12 participants last post by  Natiem99 
#1 ·
I have been training a group of horses who were all out of same parents... I just finished the first one (she gave me a lot of problems) and have just started on the second. Second is a mare, 6 yo, and the herd leader... She has been on the same cycle her whole life. Pasture, grain, and pettings. Just plain spoiled.
Took her to a roundpen to start work. Taught her to move her hindquarters (just about the only disciplinary action I have against her) and to back (she’s very slow. Takes a ton of pressure on nose). She’s very stubborn, resistant to pressure, and RUDE. Anytime I added pressure in the roundpen, she would kick out at me. She has bitten me several times while walking, simply telling me to move faster. I have no way to discipline her besides moving her hindquarters and that seems to be making little to no progress. Owner is a “no whip” type of person, which I respect.
The horses I have trained in the past few years have all been responsive, maybe even over responsive to pressure, so I am at a loss with such a rude and non-responsive horse. If a horse is rude to me as she has been, I put their butts to work until they are panting and thinking, “I’m never doing THAT again or the crazy lady is going to put me to work...” but it’s impossible right now for me to achieve that right now.
Any ideas on things to gain her respect WITHOUT the whip/smacking?
 
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#2 ·
Is she apprehensive of something? Maybe use that object to get her moving?

I am not anything resembling a horse trainer but I do that with mine because I don’t like hitting her unless necessary. I use either a plastic bag tied to a dressage whip or a fly spray bottle. But mine is well behaved most of the time.
 
#3 · (Edited)
With backing or keeping her out of your space use the pointy end of a hoof pick. Easy to carry and use and the horse doesn't realise that it isn't just your hand! Don't use it on her face but on her chest for backing or shoulder for moving over.

As for working her in the round pen, get a long thick bamboo pole about six or seven feet, split the end down to about a foot from the other end and use that to rattle behind her.

Mind you, if the owner wasn't about I would be carrying and cracking a lunge whip. One crack with that to make her move is way better than having to nag her to get her to move.
 
#4 ·
Try seeing it from her side - life was sweet, being the boss mare, used to being spoilt & bossing people as well as horses around... Then this young upstart comes along & starts trying to make her do stuff she doesn't want to. RUDELY, disrespectfully. And they are stubborn too - won't take no for an answer & keep nagging! Until she finally tries stronger communication; disciplining with her hooves & teeth...

That's not at all to say you should just accept her point of view, but to understand & *respect* it will put you in a better state of mind to work out how to *change her motivation* far better than labels of 'stubborn' 'rude' etc will.
 
#5 ·
I'm not sure if you can do it without "smacking". Yes, I agree, "yielding to pressure" should not include punishment for failing to yield (just barely as much discomfort as needed to obtain the yielding), but if I have a horse in a roundpen or similar, and I'm offered a butt that has "Come And Make Me!" written all over it (i.e. twirling the lead rope in the air has no effect and she's offering to murder me in my sleep), the only question I ask is whether to use the soft end of the lead rope on it or the buckle end, with body language to back it up.

For biting, carry a (large) nail in your fist and hold it where she will bump into it when she's trying to bite. Obviously, you won't stab her with it for punishment after the fact...just act as though YOU are a prickly creature that is best not nibbled on. If you can swing it so she makes sharp contact with your elbow when she comes in for a nib, that would work, too - just as long as she thinks she did it to herself.

If she's bitten you several times, and you "corrected" her each time, I'm thinking that whatever you do isn't a correction in her mind. If she does bite to make you go faster to where she wants to be, how about you correct her and then drag her back to wherever you started walking from?

For putting on extra pressure for backing etc., a hoof pick as Foxhunter recommended, or a soda can with a handful of pebbles maybe? Anything to make the wrong thing less comfortable.

You probably do this already, but double up on praise if she does do the right thing, to let her know that you are really not a bad egg to be around when cooperative. Nothing beats figuring out what her currency is and using that.
 
#6 ·
You don't need a whip hitting the horse...
You need to learn how to apply pressure and command respect....


Many people don't like stud chains...I do like them.
When handling a disrespectful horse in close confines a chain on a nose is a sudden wake-up call of authority knocking to the animal.
A regular lead shank put over the nose can also be awake-up call to the animal if used as a pressure agent.
You want the horse to go backward...teach first, now ask with guidance from not just nose pressure but put pressure to the shoulder/chest area along with that halter tug and word spoken "BACK" used...a combination of aids.
But the education needs to come first.


Biting...no whip is needed as my mouth and anything in my reach would be inflicting some "pressure" on that animal to get out of my space...
A huge no-no as this is so dangerous to you!!


There is a huge difference though in using a whip as a training aid and beating/striking a horse with it.
In a round-pen, that whip is the extension of your arm and body...educating the horse to do as asked and if a attitude is returned, then yes as a encouragement to do as asked now told...
A whip can be a great teaching/educating tool used correctly.

But to lash a horse with a whip.. no, just no!



You need to educate the owner in what "aides" are and how they can be used constructively, properly and with kindness not cruelty.
If you though have a owner who will not stop "spoiling", allowing such bad behavior and not reinforce what they say they want you to teach it is a no-win situation...follow-through of handling is so important.
No whips are needed is correct.
Discipline, respect though are needed and the horse now spoilt can be retrained to be a good citizen with consistent handling by ALL who interact even in the tiniest part with these horses..
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...
 
#10 ·
When handling a disrespectful horse in close confines a chain on a nose is a sudden wake-up call ...
In a round-pen, that whip is the extension of your arm and body. ...
But to lash a horse with a whip.. no, just no!


I seriously don't get the distinction that a whip is an effective 'extension of your arm' and that other forms of strong, painful punishment(chain over nose) are appropriate but hitting a horse with a whip isn't.

I don't get the point of using a whip - or other 'extension of limb' if you're not going to touch the horse with it if required. Its like saying a spur is an extension of your heel but you must never poke the horse with it. The entire point of these 'extensions' is that you can reach and punish the horse effectively for non compliance.

Punishment is punishment & IMO should be kept to an absolute minimum in training & used judiciously with full understanding. It should be as light/soft as possible BUT as strong as necessary to be effective. And occasionally, painful punishment may well be warranted IMO - to address dangerous behavior urgently for eg.
 
#7 ·
Thank you all for your help. I worked with her this morning and she was great. Didn’t kick out, bite, and stayed out of my space when asked. Only rude thing she did was push me once but I corrected it. I will try all I can that you have said! She’s not very scared of much so we will see how some of that works.
 
#8 ·
She’s not very scared of much so we will see how some of that works.
No, no, no! Disciplining is only supposed to make her uncomfortable, not scared. She should not fear the consequences of misbehaving, she should just have a dislike for them. Fear is counterproductive to learning. That is why when you misbehave you get a time-out (uncomfortable) rather than being hung by your feet from a 20th floor window (scared).
 
#9 ·
Very good point made by @mmshiro
You need to be aiming at getting a willing horse - one that figures out that working with you isn't a chore and isn't something to fight against.
If a horse starts to fear you then you've taken a huge step backwards - respect doesn't = fear.
Some horses are like some people, they're just slower to grasp things and when they don't understand they get a rebellious or disconnect.
While you do need to deter bad attitude you also have to be sure that you're praising and rewarding every bit of progress this horse makes.
Its a balancing act.
 
#11 ·
I have been training a group of horses who were all out of same parents... I just finished the first one (she gave me a lot of problems) and have just started on the second. Second is a mare, 6 yo, and the herd leader... She has been on the same cycle her whole life. Pasture, grain, and pettings. Just plain spoiled.
Took her to a roundpen to start work. Taught her to move her hindquarters (just about the only disciplinary action I have against her) and to back (she’s very slow. Takes a ton of pressure on nose). She’s very stubborn, resistant to pressure, and RUDE. Anytime I added pressure in the roundpen, she would kick out at me. She has bitten me several times while walking, simply telling me to move faster. I have no way to discipline her besides moving her hindquarters and that seems to be making little to no progress. Owner is a “no whip” type of person, which I respect.
The horses I have trained in the past few years have all been responsive, maybe even over responsive to pressure, so I am at a loss with such a rude and non-responsive horse. If a horse is rude to me as she has been, I put their butts to work until they are panting and thinking, “I’m never doing THAT again or the crazy lady is going to put me to work...” but it’s impossible right now for me to achieve that right now.
Any ideas on things to gain her respect WITHOUT the whip/smacking?
\


Here is what I first thought, upon reading your OP, with reference to the bolded part:


First of all, if she is near enough to bite you when leading her, she is too near. That's the first thing I'd work on; getting her to move away from you and move with you, but keeping a respectful distance.


So, yes, teaching her to back up is essential, but if she is heavy, it is her FRONT end that you need to lighten. In fact, focusing on the hind quarters can often end up having her bring her head around toward you, and for a horse that has already demonstrated the desire to apply pressure on your from THAT end, you want to demonstrate your ability to have her move that end away first, then the hindquarters.


Also, when the hrose gets stuck backing away from you , and increased pressure on her nose only gets her to become more bracy and resistant, you want to utilize having her mover her nose, then head, then shoulders away from you to break her feet out of their stiffness, and then you may have better luck getting a back up.


Really, what it comes down to is that with a horse that has some fight in her, say, more than flight, you have to address that THOUGHT, before she acts on it. So, when you are leading her, you need to watch her like you have eyes on all sides of your head, and the INSTANT you see her even thinking about pushing on your, or, God forbid, BITING you, you address that thought! wham o! you get her attention, and you get a change of that thought.



you don't have to punish, you just interrrupt that stinkin' thinkin'. a swift, hard jiggle of the rope may be all , or that with a hard, "Ah@! Ah!", so she knows she is being corrected. She will probably stop, throw up her head, or step backward or sideways, and then she'll ***** her ears and look at you with curiosisty and interest. That though she had of biting you will have vanished, and she will be looking at you , open to direction.



THAT is when you walk forward again. If she comes forward nice, you do nothing. but, once she steps one step too close, you shake the rope hard and move her off. wait for the two eyes / ears from her, then move forward again.


the sooner you address her transgressions (biting, or crowding), when they are only thoughts, the easier it is to get her to not act on them.

no whip. You may need to make a big commotion, and whips are good for that, but hopefully you wouldn't have to whip her.
 
#14 ·
you don't have to punish, you just interrrupt that stinkin' thinkin'. a swift, hard jiggle of the rope may be all , or that with a hard, "Ah@! Ah!", so she knows she is being corrected.
Agree with all else you said Tiny, but wondering, what do you see a 'swift hard jiggle' as, if not punishment?? Maybe you're seeing 'punishment' as an abuse that happens after an event, as a lot of people seem to interpret it. But correctly speaking, positive punishment means applying some unpleasant, undesirable stimuli, in order to weaken/stop an undesirable behaviour. So 'wiggling' the rope, shouting 'Ah-ah!' or hitting with a whip are all straight egs of punishment. ... tho if you have to do something else so 'she knows she's being corrected' then I'd say the punishment was not at all effective.

I am being 'finicky' here, because I think it is SO important for people to really understand the principles behind using tactics, such as punishment, to be effective & understood in the way we intend.
 
#12 ·
It often takes more tact to train a horse that is accustomed to making all the decisions. Gentle coaxing and rewarding small positive responses often works well as a way to begin getting positive responses.

Requiring respect from the horse is a somewhat different matter.

While a “no whip” approach is generally a good approach, biting should never be tolerated. I seldom advise striking a horse in the head, but I will quickly slap a horse’s mouth if it tries to bite. The quicker any correction is made the better and the less intense such correction need be. Delayed reaction may fail to teach a horse the relationship between its action and the human’s reaction.
 
#13 ·
A lot of good points made here. I would definitely agree with Loosie that, while punishment should be kept to a minimum when possible, it's kind of a necessary evil when dealing with large animals. Animals that, mind you, have the potential to step out of line unknowingly and they need to be corrected to keep everyone safe. "Playtime" isn't fun for humans when the horse is rearing and comes down on a foot. Or with one leg in the wheelbarrow. Or the horse is running laps and making passes and knocks you into the hotwire! Accidental? Yeah maybe. But shouldn't be happening. Period.

Now, a pop with a whip can work very well if the horse processes it the same way as they would see another horse reaching out and nipping them. It's not always abuse. "Move" means move and "go" means go. Regardless of if it comes from a person or another horse. Heck I've even grabbed a horses neck or shoulder a few times if I didn't have anything else and do the old pinch and twist real quick. Probably feels pretty similar to a nip IMO... and gets their attention real quick. I was taught levels of escalation when asking for things. Simply put: ask, bump, then demand. If you ask a horse to do something, and no response, make it a little stronger. Give a "hey, wake up! I'm asking something." If you still get nothing (or worse, a 'screw you') you need to go "Ahem! I said get off my foot buddy!!" or "Hey! We're gonna canter. Ideally now."

I would however, have a chat with the owner about two things... 1) Why does she not want a whip involved in training? Is it personal bias, does she not prefer artificial aids, is the horse dead scared/been abused by whips, does she not trust you to use one properly, etc. and 2) Is there a chance she might allow some involvement of a whip (or stick, or tin of rocks, or an aid that isn't just body language) without it touching the horse? A lunge whip spanking the ground or cracked in the air is a mighty motivator without ever coming within 2 body lengths of the horse!
 
#15 ·
Majority of horses that become herd leaders are bossy, so when I get a horse like that I have absolutely no guilt about using a lunge whip if they are being resentful of doing as asked.

As said many times it is the timing that counts. I will a) have the horse on a lunge line for better control. b) will have taught the horse the meaning of the words 'walk on' whilst leading. c) I will ask the horse to walk, at the same time raise the whip slightly and move the lash. No response and I will flick the lash making it crack, no response and I will flick it around the hind quarters so they feel a touch, no further response and l will crack it against their back legs hard. All the time using the words 'walk on'

If I am working a horse loose then I will use a lunge line to throw at the horse often so it lands across their backs.
 
#17 ·
Owner is a “no whip” type of person, which I respect.

For me, my SAFETY comes before the "wishes" of the owner. If the owner wants to go into that roundpen with a horse that kicks and bites without a whip, be my guest.



So for myself, I'd be having a serious conversation with said owner about their spoiled horses, and educate how the whip is used as a tool, and not an "abusing device".


Of course, I don't advocate for beating a horse in any shape or form whether it's a whip or a stud chain or whatever tool you choose to use (horses can be abused with anything), but there is nothing wrong with a good smack with the whip if the horse deserved it and it keeps me safe. I consider biting and kicking to be very dangerous and I address it accordingly. When done correctly, you should only need to correct the horse a couple of times and then they understand that they are no longer the leader .... I am.



She’s not very scared of much so we will see how some of that works.

It's not about making the horse scared. It's about making the horse respect the handler. You don't (and shouldn't) make the horse scared to achieve that.


It really all comes down to TIMING. If you aren't achieving a response from the horse, then most likely your timing is off. If you release pressure too soon, the horse learns they don't actually have to listen to you. If you release too late, they don't understand what the correct response was.
 
#18 ·
Thank you everyone for your help again. I cannot figure out how to tag posts so I’m just going to mention a few. I definitely see the point of moving the front end as well as the hind and I will start doing that Monday. As for the biting... she WAS biting me while we were walking (she has not done it in two days because I worked her over when she did every time.) She would be behind me walking and bite my elbow or shoulder. She would have a distance between us, maybe half a horse and lunge forward, so it’s not as she was in my space. It was just complete rudeness and disrespect... I’ve made her walk next to me now and I don’t let her whole head pass my body. I prefer her nose even with my body. Her back is better, i ask her to back by saying back and putting pressure on her chest. As for the person who said that I was going to try and scare her with things that not what I meant at all... i agree about disliking and I would have found something she disliked. I’m not training her to be scared... but calm and respectful ☺ I appreciate your help again but these past few days I have made a ton of progress on her... she hasn’t bit, kicked, nor gotten in my space.
 
#20 ·
She would have a distance between us, maybe half a horse and lunge forward, so it’s not as she was in my space.
Hah, that's interesting. I actually prefer to walk next to the horse's shoulder - it's harder to get run over that way in case the horse gets spooked from behind... Plus you can see the nose coming around in case she's got mischief on her mind... :)

In any case, great to see you're sorting things out together.
 
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