tacking up problem!! - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 02:39 PM
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I don't know anything about manipulating or massaging a horse's back. But I would think that if something on his back hurts him, that he would react to manipulation as much as he would to saddling. So assuming any back problems have been eliminated, "start from scratch" may not be what you want to hear, but is the best thing. I did not grown up around horses. Had my first horse at the age of 30 when I bought a small farm. My first two horses were adopted wild mustangs from the BLM, back in the 80s when the horses up for adoption were really wild. I didn't know ANYTHING about horses. But I soon found out that they like feed and treats, and that introducing new things to them when they were eating their grain was an excellent way to go about it. So, yes, if you have to go back to just brushing him as he's eating, then that's the way it is. I would hang a saddle pad or blanket close to him when he's eating. When he seems ok with that, pick up the pad and set it back. Then, pick it up, walk around him and set it back. And while you're doing this, constantly talk to him. Then touch him with the pad. Eventually set the pad on him. Set the pad on him, take it off. Do it, again, increasing the amount of time you leave the pad on his back. When it looks like he's not paying any attention to you, start the whole thing over with the saddle. Coincidentally, neither of those two mustangs ever bucked, not even the first time I got on them. Good luck.
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post #22 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Boo Walker View Post
Why did you buy this horse if you want a riding horse? His issues are way above your experience level and NOTHING you learn here can help you. You just don't have the skills yet to do what's needed. You have to develop timing and "feel". This is done on safe horses who are forgiving of your learning mistakes.

This is beyond you. It's time for outside help. I really wish green folks would stop getting these type horses. If it was just cheap..well you got what you paid for. This is why good horses cost money. End of my rant.
I am not a “green folk” i have owned many horses before this one, and have worked at saddlebred training farms all around, iv been around horses my whole life and experienced a lot..

I just have never dealt with a horse with a tacking up problem and that’s why i asked on this website i do not appreciate you assuming stuff when you don’t know..
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post #23 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AtokaGhosthorse View Post
Once you've absolutely ruled out any medical issues, and if this isn't defiant aggression (As opposed to genuine fear or a response to remembered pain) then you're going to have to take a different approach.

If it's pure fear... you're going to have to present everything to him slowly. Give snacks for a willingness to just sniff a saddle pad for example, then walk away with it. Put it up, forget it for the day, then groom him and keep your body language neutral and quiet. Come back the next day, present the saddle blanket... give him a treat for sniffing it and maybe another if he sniffs it again and doesn't move away.

Rinse and repeat until you can put it on his shoulder and rub it against him safely. Put it up. Walk away from the idea of tacking up. Give him snacks, calm talk, grooming. He has to learn to associate you with good things and the tack with good things.

The grooming and being calm around him will help him bond with you and you with him.

If he paws at you, give him a whap on the chest with a crop or something handy... but don't lose your temper and beat him like a red headed step child. Be fast, be fair. If physical assault really freaks him out, sometimes a stern ssshhhing, hands in the air, making yourself look big is enough to get your bluff in.

Then move on with your day like it never happened... just like other horses treat one another. Fast, fair, firm, absolute, then forget about it until you have to be fast, fair, and firm and absolute again... Consistency and being fair is the key here. You're going to have to also tailor your responses to the horse. It's not a once size fits all, different horses react differently to different corrections.

If it's true aggression - and not a response to fear: Do. Not. Risk it. You'll get stomped to pudding.

Note: It used to take over an HOUR to tack up my horse Trigger. Now, unless he's feeling fresh and antsy and eager, it takes about 15 minutes to tack him up in full double rigging, breast collar, wither strap, headstall a life saver snaffle, 8ft weighted split split reins and a curb chain. I no longer have to present EVERYTHING to him, though he seems to consider it polite and good manners to do so. If it's something new, I do let him sniff it over and give his approval first. Things just go so much smoother when he can look at it, sniff it, and process it, briefly, before I dump it on him. We no longer spent an hour and a half talking about tack and giving reassurances it won't eat him or hurt him. Snacks are now only for the most extreme of good behavior and given randomly 'just because' rather than for every. little. positive thing. he does. Stuff like letting me touch him... no. Stuff like not spooking at a Scary Thing he used to spook at, like a feed bag blowing in the wind on the side of the trail? Mystery Dog just manifesting out of the tall grass and barking, and Trigs just keeps trucking along like Dog isn't there? You betcha he gets snacks. I ride with them in my pockets.

TL;dr.... Be sure, sure, sure, it's not pain related. IF you're sure you've ruled it out, make sure, sure, sure, it's a fear response, not aggression or aggressive defiance.

Then be prepared to take as much time, over the course of as many weeks, months, or years (It took TWO YEARS with Trigger) as it takes.

PS:

Auction horses come with 'holes' in the them. They have a sketchy past, they probably have reasons for being at an auction. It may take weeks, even months to figure out why since they can't tell us in words what sets them off, or how bad, or good, they've been treated, or where their training holes are. Trigger and Sarge are both auction horses. Sarge came from an Amish auction that was open to English to sell stuff, so he's an 'English' horse sold by a big ranching outfit that brought a couple of surplus horses down to sell; Trigger came from a low end horse auction in Cleburn Tx. Sarge was 700.00 to bring home, Trigger was 400.00 plus I bought a 300.00 Ammerman roping saddle from the guy that sold him to me, so 700.00 for him too. Both have problems, though Trigger's have been more severe. Sarge is just a big, lazy, insecure, proud cut goon who's never seen a mare he didn't immediately buddy sour to or another gelding he didn't immediately want to challenge for said mare's affections. Trigger however has probably been abused and his most likely past life has finally revealed itself. I've had Sarge two years, Trigger three. I wouldn't part with either, but they both have their hang ups. Neither are mean or aggressive to people or this would be a very different conversation.

One last thing. I see a lot of people trashing Amish for being abusive to their horses. I guess that experience with the Amish and their livestock is very different than mine. The Amish out in Clarita OK take very good care of their animals - they are their livelihood and every Amish horse I've ever met was bright eyed and altogether lovely and full of themselves. I absolutely lost it, grinning in delight, when I saw a pair of teenage Amish girls with a little cart, in stylish aviator sunglasses and Nike flip flops, the bonnets and Amish dresses, and a horse with his head up, tail flagging, trotting right down the road at a spirited pace back in May when we went over to their greenhouse/nursery.
He was not at an auction he was at an amish farm out in PA, so many people have given up on this horse not willing to work with him because he is “difficult” but i strongly believe in him and that’s hes not in pain and it’s just how he acts about tacking up.. he’s fine for blanketing and petting anywhere and brushing it’s just tacking up as i said.

i bought this horse because he has lots of potential and i do know what i am doing (other than coming on her and seeing what other peoples opinions were..) i know i have to work with him bc he clearly has trust issues.

i got him 3 months ago and when i first got him he couldn’t lunge he would go one way and turn fast and run the other way and he was terrified of a lot right now he trusts me the most and i can take him for walks around the barn and lunge him with no problem.. i can brush him but i cannot cross tie him he gets so anxious and scared (me thinking he prob flipped or something happened to him on them) but my mom normally holds him for me and he loves snuggles and is calm being held.. that’s where he’s most comfortable.
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post #24 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 05:21 PM
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Sounds like you don't need advice, because everyone on here told you what are our opinions are and what we would do. None of that appeals to you. That is fine, glad it's working out for you. But please be careful.

I am not here to promote anythingNo, that's not true, I am here to promote everything equestrian and everyone enjoying horses!
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post #25 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Gees Atoka, I would be livid & my kid would not be owning a horse again with that attitude while I had a say! Guessing your daughter is older than mine & maybe you don't have a say in that though.

I'd come up with an analogy about treating people the same way to try to get it across to her. Or perhaps it would take treating her similarly(without the kicking of course) and pointing out why you're doing so...

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #26 of 42 Old 10-12-2018, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylamoyerr View Post
i bought this horse because he has lots of potential and i do know what i am doing (other than coming on her and seeing what other peoples opinions were..) i know i have to work with him bc he clearly has trust issues.
All this further info is very relevant. In defense of Boo's mistaken assumptions, it did sound to me too that you weren't very experienced. We all make assumptions based on our experience & only have what's written to go on, so don't feel you're 'going on too much' to elaborate about stuff, as it's helpful & lessens wrong assumptions & guesses at what's going on.

Now, if you do know what you're doing, I would still suggest you find experienced help, but I agree with those who have said start from scratch, baby steps, use lots of treats & rewards to associate appropriate behaviour with Good Stuff. And minimise or avoid punishment.
Quote:
cannot cross tie him he gets so anxious and scared (me thinking he prob flipped or something happened to him
Maybe. But just as you shouldn't assume he was abused(maybe he was, but...), just because a horse is nervous about something doesn't at all mean something terrible happened in the past. With experience dealing with lots of horses, you will come to see that horses are generally worried about that sort of thing unless they have been carefully trained to be comfortable being trapped like that.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg

Last edited by loosie; 10-12-2018 at 07:10 PM.
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post #27 of 42 Old 10-14-2018, 06:28 AM
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I have only skimmed the replies.

Here's my take on things.

As he has had both a chiropractor and massage I think this is a total lack of trust. There were no problems originally yet the person who owned him before the Amish said there were problems.

So, I would say that his saddle was ill fitting and he was trying to say so but was ignored. What could he do but get really nasty and fight against it all. From whet I have heard the Amish are not to gentle with their horses so, even more reason to turn extra mean.

Bribing him with food is not the answer, gaining his trust is.

Take him into an enclosed area like a round pen or arena and work with him there. Start with flicking a rope over his back, allow him to move around you and do not stop until he stops. There are several videos on this for you to look at.

From there progress to a numnah or saddle blanket, then I would use a lightweight saddle like a bareback pad before finding a well fitting saddle.
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post #28 of 42 Old 10-14-2018, 07:03 PM
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Foxhunter. I hope you're making a distinction between bribing a horse with food and rewarding him with food. Rewarding a horse with treats/food is an excellent training tool, which has been demonstrated to work not only on horses, but anything from dogs to seals. And feeding an animal is a good way to earn its trust. I did with my wild mustangs.
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post #29 of 42 Old 10-14-2018, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylamoyerr View Post
I am not a “green folk” i have owned many horses before this one, and have worked at saddlebred training farms all around, iv been around horses my whole life and experienced a lot..

I just have never dealt with a horse with a tacking up problem and that’s why i asked on this website i do not appreciate you assuming stuff when you don’t know..

Replying in the same tone I read that, and how do you expect people to know without you telling them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waresbear View Post
Sounds like you don't need advice, because everyone on here told you what are our opinions are and what we would do. None of that appeals to you. That is fine, glad it's working out for you. But please be careful.
It does sound like that, which is truly a shame, each and every person who responded, took the trouble to make suggestions, because they wanted to help, both you and the horse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post

Maybe. But just as you shouldn't assume he was abused(maybe he was, but...), just because a horse is nervous about something doesn't at all mean something terrible happened in the past. With experience dealing with lots of horses, you will come to see that horses are generally worried about that sort of thing unless they have been carefully trained to be comfortable being trapped like that.
This is true, we were told Stella has a bridling issue when we bought her, she doesn’t, two attempts by my trainer and she bridles like any other horse, as long as you take it slow and steady.

What she has is a specific movement issue, and certainly a situational one. Something has happened when she was having a halter removed I guess, or another incident that causes her to react violently and rear and run back, in that movement. Glad i’m Not about as it will be down to my trainer to explore the behavioural issues, while I arrange vet and chiropractor to assess her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charrorider View Post
Foxhunter. I hope you're making a distinction between bribing a horse with food and rewarding him with food. Rewarding a horse with treats/food is an excellent training tool, which has been demonstrated to work not only on horses, but anything from dogs to seals. And feeding an animal is a good way to earn its trust. I did with my wild mustangs.
Back to the world of assumptions, there is nothing that I have read from Foxhunter, that would make me think there is any blurring of the distinction.
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post #30 of 42 Old 10-14-2018, 09:11 PM
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I agree with it most likely being a training issue. General had an issue with the saddle blanket for a while. I know exactly what happened too.

I went out to saddle and as I was putting on the blanket it had static electricity and shocked him. He jumped sideways and the blanket was still in my hand. I was like “sorry buddy” and immediately threw it back on him. Same exact thing happened, not even just twice but probably four times! Seriously! I was irritated with myself for shocking him so many times and not going and touching metal or something, but each time I never would have thought it could possible happen again.

He held on to that grudge for the longest time. At first I worked on desensitizing him to it (after it continued a few times that he was throwing a fit about it). He was a strong horse, and broke a heavy tie rack at one point over it. He wouldn’t get over it until time passed. Eventually I just saddled him with it, and I could gage his attitude by it. Was he easy to throw the saddle blanket on or hard that day?

Time passed (not a short amount, but probably a couple years) and so did his worry. So, yes something happened, but it wasn’t intentional abuse.

Never was he aggressive though. I wouldn’t have kept him with his inability to quickly get over it had he been mean about it. Obviously this horse has been able to use aggression to get out of it. I wouldn’t have a horse around who came at me serious more than once or twice.

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaam’s Donkey
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