Trainer says one thing, gut says another? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by palogal View Post
^^ That's what came to mind for me as well. Clearly that's not what she meant. I think she means foamy mouth as in white saliva from chewing and acceptance.
This is what I'm questioning - I don't *know*, but it just doesn't make sense to me - the assumption that is the reason for a 'foaming mouth'. If that's so, why is it that you generally only see it on horses doing dressage, with a lot of 'contact' and usually with multiple nosebands tying the mouth shut? And for that matter, if chewing on the bit is a good thing, why tie mouths shut anyway?? If it's truly about acceptance, and chewing on the bit is desirable, why don't relaxed horses do it? Why don't working (including working with 'contact' & 'on the bit') stock & western horses do it??
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post #32 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 05:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
This is what I'm questioning - I don't *know*, but it just doesn't make sense to me - the assumption that is the reason for a 'foaming mouth'. If that's so, why is it that you generally only see it on horses doing dressage, with a lot of 'contact' and usually with multiple nosebands tying the mouth shut? And for that matter, if chewing on the bit is a good thing, why tie mouths shut anyway?? If it's truly about acceptance, and chewing on the bit is desirable, why don't relaxed horses do it? Why don't working (including working with 'contact' & 'on the bit') stock & western horses do it??
The Fuss About Foam | Dressage Different

That article explains what I have been trying to say. My most successful rides have always ended with a light coat of "lipstick." It is common knowledge in classical dressage that foam is good. If there's so much that it's dripping and splashing onto the horse's chest, that's obviously not okay.
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c'est la vie
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post #33 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by loosie View Post
This is what I'm questioning - I don't *know*, but it just doesn't make sense to me - the assumption that is the reason for a 'foaming mouth'. If that's so, why is it that you generally only see it on horses doing dressage, with a lot of 'contact' and usually with multiple nosebands tying the mouth shut? And for that matter, if chewing on the bit is a good thing, why tie mouths shut anyway?? If it's truly about acceptance, and chewing on the bit is desirable, why don't relaxed horses do it? Why don't working (including working with 'contact' & 'on the bit') stock & western horses do it??
This is all completely incorrect. Dressage riders do not tie the mouth closed....EVER. Chewing is a sign of relaxation of the jaw and thinking, not grinding and chomping, just a light chew will result in foam. Relaxed horses on correct contact chew, accept and foam. My dressage horses foam in any noseband or without one for that matter. It's not the noseband doing any of the work. It's main job is to keep the bit from sliding through the mouth or with othe nosebands, to keep the jaw from crossing (figure 8), support the jaw of a green horse learning dressate (flash etc. None of them are for the purpose of tying the mouth closed or forcing contact.

Working cow horses etc, DO foam by the way.
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post #34 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 11:11 AM
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Sadly, a lot of dressage riders DO have the horse's mouth quite constricted by a flash or dropped noseband . There is no way with it on as tight as the have it that the horse can move it all, which means he can't pick it up and hold it with his tongue. He has no choice ar all where it is in his mouth.
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post #35 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 11:45 AM
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Sadly, a lot of dressage riders DO have the horse's mouth quite constricted by a flash or dropped noseband . There is no way with it on as tight as the have it that the horse can move it all, which means he can't pick it up and hold it with his tongue. He has no choice ar all where it is in his mouth.
Every discipline has bad examples. They are the exception, not the rule and it's not a lot of them either.
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post #36 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 01:08 PM
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I think we all need to separate what people do correctly from the many that do use the same things incorrectly
To start with martingales - other than training forks a correctly fitted standing or running martingale won't force the horse into a 'fixed headset' and a 'fixed headset' won't do you any good in a dressage competition
You also can't compare AQHA hunter classes on the flat or over fences with any other hunter classes and certainly not with dressage training
When riding you can often have your hands high or low but unless you're riding with a hard rigid hand its not going to force the horse into anything
A dressage or any horse, trained to have contact with the bit/hands should follow the bit down - 'chew down' when you lengthen the reins and allow it to do that. The horse should lengthen and lower its neck but not lose contact with the bit and not lean on the rider's hands or go heavy on the forehand
When you're riding this exercise you do have a low hand
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post #37 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by palogal View Post
This is all completely incorrect. Dressage riders do not tie the mouth closed....EVER.
Hmm, maybe you're in an ideal world. In the real world, including in some top competitions, horses do indeed have their mouth tied shut.

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Working cow horses etc, DO foam by the way.
Not in my experience, of actual working horses, but I haven't been to any rodeos for many, many years, so I don't know if competition 'working' horses commonly do.

Quote:
Every discipline has bad examples. They are the exception, not the rule and it's not a lot of them either.
Yes of course, I appreciate that. Just seems like there are a lot more exceptions than rules to observe in a lot of competitions. Like that first vid Jaydee posted(didn't watch vid, just the pic you can see of it), where the horse is way behind the vertical for eg.
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post #38 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 08:50 PM
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I agree that all disciplines have bad examples.
However, using martingales, esp if you ride in events where they are not allowed, does not teach your horse , or you, for that matter, to develop that true feel or self carriage, and if the then need to show without them, it is like taking away a crutch.
I see cowhorses work that cricket, waiting to take a cow down the fence, but that is an example of that cricket being used much like a pacifier.
Have foam on a horse in a performance rail class, and you will be marked down, as we want a quiet relaxed and closed mouth, without the use of a cavasson .
I never have a trail horse, either, foam at the mouth
Far as I can see, it is seen in disciplines ridden with a lot of contact, in conjunction with some sort of noseband, be it flash or just a cavasson
Therefore, I will continue to view a foaming mouth as contrary to a horse carrying a bit, relaxed
Of course, there are bad examples in every discipline, but the fact remains, better horses are created by riding with feel, using legs and hands in the right balance, without any martingales, draw reins, ect
Sometimes they are needed on a problem horse, or used in disciplines where ;bigger' bits are also used to control a horse worked at speed, but if you can train without them, you will produce a better, softer and more responsive and light horse
Jumping, you show with martingales, so use them to train if needed
In events,w here I show, in which neither martingales or cavassons are legal, it makes sense to train in equipment that you can show in
Otherwise, you go into a classs, and the horse says 'whee, I can carry myself where I want , and at the speed I want.
Trial riding with those devises is just plain 'stupid'
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post #39 of 49 Old 09-29-2015, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, I feel like there's a lot of controversy happening on this post. I kindly ask for everybody to stop replying if you are going to argue with other people.
Whether or not you agree with how I ride and train my horses doesn't matter. My question was answered and the issue has already been fixed.
If you are arguing about a thin coat of foam on a horse's lips, this is not the thread. Please create a new one for that. Obviously that's a bigger issue than I thought it would be. To me, foam is good. You can ask any classical dressage rider and trainer and I'm certain they'll agree. But I suppose western disciplines think differently, which is okay too.

Please remember, the world isn't full of fairy trainers, candy cane bits, or cotton candy saddles.

c'est la vie
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post #40 of 49 Old 09-30-2015, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by aclassicalpaint View Post

Please remember, the world isn't full of fairy trainers, candy cane bits, or cotton candy saddles.

Wait, wwhat??? Then who trains all the unicorns and pegasus?



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