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"Try" and re-teaching a horse heart

28K views 53 replies 26 participants last post by  Reiningcatsanddogs 
#1 ·
Random thoughts, but I can't be the only one, right? Behavior folks?

I know a lot of people like a horse with a lot of "try" or a lot of "heart" in him/her. IE, a horse that will keep working for you, even if things aren't exactly going according to plan or going perfectly and are difficult. Sometimes that difficulty is on the horse end, sometimes the rider end, and sometimes it's just a tough situation, like a stream with muddy banks, uncertain footing, and no good way to get around except by going through. Some of this could even fall under the category of bravery, I suppose.

I think that poor training stamps a lot of try and heart out of a lot of good horses. I see it in dogs too. Poor training can ruin an animal's willingness to work all too easily.

My horse was initially broke to ride by some random traditional horse-trainer in South TX. He was just another late-gelded untrained 4 year old that needed to be under saddle to be at all marketable. I don't think his training was overly harsh or in any way unusual or different from what many horses get. He got the basics. He was reprimanded when he did something wrong, and not reprimanded when he did the right thing. He's a little sensitive compared to some, but not as sensitive as others, so all in all, everything was fairly normal.

I got a horse that was terrified of doing the wrong thing though. Things he knew were right, he would do quickly and willingly, johhny-on-the-spot. Ask him something he didn't know the pat response to though (like to sidle up to a gate), and he'd get tense. He'd throw his head up in the air and either try to run off like a giraffe or try to pretend he couldn't 'hear' you at all and figuratively stuff his fingers in his ears. I think those are pretty familiar responses and things we see commonly in green horses or horses with less than perfect training.

He was so scared of the punishment for being 'wrong' that he refused to try. Flight, fight, or freeze kicked in. He didn't want to offer any behaviors or attempts to figure out what I wanted because he knew, from his previous training, that if they weren't the 'right' ones, he would be reprimanded. It's tough, and not entirely safe, to train a horse that is so scared of being wrong that his entire existence under saddle is in a state of anxiety. Fear is dangerous.

I spent the first year un-training that previous life experience. Teaching an animal that they will NOT be punished for trying to do what I want, even if their response is wrong to start with, is a slow process that can be very frustrating. The biggest hurdle is getting through to them that it is okay to try. Getting them to learn that trying, by its very self, will actually be rewarded rather than reprimanded, is the key. Baby steps. The tiniest baby steps ever. The least 'try' they will give you has to be rewarded to start. Once you have a horse willing to try to give you the right answer, it's too easy to simply guide them to the correct behavior and then only reward them for what it is you actually want.

My horse still gets anxious and worried when he doesn't know the right response or understand the question sometimes, but he lives to please, and I now have a horse that will try and try and try. He has a heart as big as TX and is utterly fearless about figuring out what crazy thing it is I want this time. Even when it goes against his natural instincts, he knows that so long as he keeps trying, he will be rewarded, and that there is no punishment for not getting it right on the first (or the fiftieth) try. Having a horse that trusts he will eventually figure out the right answer no matter how nutty the situation I've put him in seems (to him) is priceless. He knows I won't set him up to "lose", and if you can't lose, you can be a very, very brave pony indeed.

That is how my spooky green gelding became a horsie good citizen and will face all sorts of monsters (real and imaginary) and challenges just because he's asked to. Maybe it's sappy, but his "try" is my favorite thing about this horse, even though he didn't have any to begin with. Cookies if you stuck with it all. :lol:
 
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#31 ·
Horses can be spooky either because they are nervous of a situation or because they zone out and explode when coming back to reality. I had one of the latter. I say had because a lot of liberty work. On the line he could be compliant but would frequently zone out then explode, white-eyed and snorty. He was never hit and the few who handled him were confident. It took a month of daily work at liberty, sometimes 4 or 5 times daily, just moving him around and getting him to keep both eyes on me. This was in the pasture, not the confines of a paddock or round pen. When he got over it, it happened all at once, like a huge AHA moment and he became a completely different horse, and a likeable one to boot.
 
#32 ·
My formal education is in Cognitive Psychology and I have transferred that knowledge into working with children with behavioral difficulties, learning disabilities and difficult dogs.

I am not a Behaviorist as I am less interested in eliciting a quick response than I am in the proceedure of engaging the brain to process information to arrive at the correct response and then being able to access that information at a later date as needed; AKA the process of learning. That goes for horses too, though far less is known about the workings and capabilities of the horse’s brain than humans, so we are all kind of left to our own devices.

I have two horses who were former ranch horses, one worked one of the largest ranches in the USA for the first six years of his life (he is incidentally, the most jumpy). Two of my other horses are not ranch horses. The training methods used to “break” these horses were very different. That said, so is their breeding. One of the biggest unresolved arguments in psychology is "Nature vs. Nurture".

The ranch horses came to me nervous, slow to trust, knowledgeable and stubborn. The other two came to me unflappable, curious, virtually untrained and willing.

The differences could be innate, due to training methodology/human interaction and/or life experiences.

What I have noted is that my initially “jumpy” ranch horses’ demeanor has been altered by the way I approach working with them. This leads me to believe that the differences are not permanently innate but in a large part, learned.

Both ranch horses are fairly obedient horses, so “training” in their cases is about re-teaching them to not simply react mindlessly to stimulus, but to think and process the information given.

Increasing the access to the pathways connecting both sides of the brain (limited though not completely absent in the horse) is the long term goal.

Saddlebag, it is my theory, your a-ha moment with your horse at liberty is a turning point because a new connection was made between the right and left . Your horse discovered how to access and use a whole 'nother part of his brain (the thinking part), what a great accomplishment!
 
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#35 ·
I am aware that this is an old post, but I just read it, so it's new to me.

I substitute teach. I see so many students who just endure school. They don't want to learn anything because they don't think the specific knowledge has any value for them. Those students make me very sad.

Then I go visit my too-smart-for-his-own-good gelding. He makes me very happy. As a team, we are a work in progress. I really appreciate this Forum for the connections with other thinking equestrians.

I really wish I knew what he is thinking when he stares at the birds.
 
#37 ·
I substitute teach. I see so many students who just endure school. They don't want to learn anything because they don't think the specific knowledge has any value for them. Those students make me very sad.
I am SOOO dirty on(& confused how they made it so) my science teachers at school, who made science a boring, abstract & rather useless subject. Was only after I left school that I started to see it as anything but! If they could only have seen me riveted in lectures & lessons by a neurobiologist... DESPITE their 'teachings'!
 
#36 ·
I really like this thread a lot and I'm glad I'm not the only one!
i have a QH mare who had training gone wrong that involved constant ripping on her mouth and her nose tied in to her chest....
I am gonna be honest, i hated that horse from the beginning. she had no respect for me and i had no respect for her. but there was honestly something i began to see. she reminded me somewhat of myself. she was full of anxiety. only to the point where she would lose her brain and panic. no bolting but spinning and backing and throwing her head and boy would u make a mistake if you touched the reins if she had a bit in her mouth. (i was 10 yrs old while attempting to "train" beast). we never clicked.... until i decided to try her in english for a change.there wasn't a difference in her behavior but the way she carried herself had changed. now let me mention this horse is an impressive. and the impressive's pedigree have been very very hot horses at times. well let me tell you, there was not a single speck of western pleasure in that horse. she doesn't like anything that has to do with western.well its almost been 6 yrs and progress is very slow as if ts 1/2 a step forward and 5 steps back. so as few yrs back i gave up on "training". i began to realize this horse needed guidance and a friend who would accept her faults. only 1 year ago did we begin to finally progress. let me tell you this horse was my nanas, well now we have had to swap. i get the hot QH and she gets my calm arab. a few weeks ago i was thinking how long it had been to get anything to work well for beast. it had been 6 yrs and i hadn't gotten anywhere other than learned how to help her with her breakdowns when she had a bit in her mouth. the minute she starts to throw a fit(most people panic and tighten there reins when a horse starts jumping around) is drop the reins and your irons and let her do what she does. well... the minute you do that she stops and relaxes. you pick those reins up she ties her nose to her chest and she does the zenyatta dance. it drives me crazy and I'm surprised she hasn't killed me yet. shows were awful her anxiety would sky rocket. i never truly believed in this horse until this year and idk what it was that kept me with her other than i wanted to help her....
anyways... long story short she now jumps and totally relaxes in a hackamore, no more anxiety either:) she will not work in bits though. the minute you put a bit in her mouth all her anxiety comes back. i believe it reminds her of the trainer but I'm really glad i kept up with her. :)
 
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#38 ·
Teachers in school are not so different to horse trainers - there are some that are able to inspire the pupil to do well even when the subject is boring to them and then there are those who can't do
Horses are just as capable as children of becoming 'creative' when they think the teaching session needs livening up a bit or they just switch off and get labeled as being too 'dumb' to waste time on.
 
#39 ·
^Absolutely! But it didn't go down so well with some people when I've equated kids to training animals!

Which reminds me... I don't do 'baby talk', but I do tend to 'chatter' a bit(can you tell by my posts??:icon_rolleyes:) and I've had people who didn't see who I was talking to say "Oh I thought you were talking to a dog, not a kid", or vice versa!
 
#40 ·
From my experience, it really helps if the horse knows/trusts you. (Obviously). But another HUGE factor I think is rewarding the try. Like other people have already said, if you punish the horse for doing the wrong thing, or not doing the right thing exactly correct, they become afraid to make a mistake, and therefore won't even try. But if you show them you appreciate that they made the effort, they aren't afraid to try it again, even if they don't get it right. This also translate over to pretty much any animal training in my opinion. Great post!
 
#41 ·
I acquired a horse last spring as a rescue who fell in to this category. He was malnourished and skinny with a wire cut to his leg that was left alone resulting in the immediate need for minor surgery. I didn't need another horse on top of the two I already had, but I couldn't let him stay where he was. I spent the next 4 months doctoring his leg and feeding him groceries and got him back to being healthy and healed. He was fine to be around on the ground less the few circles it took around the catch pen to actually catch him. I started riding him about 3 months ago and came to the conclusion that he was an absolute disaster to ride and was actually dangerous to ride as he would pay attention and seek out other horses above what I'd ask him to do while in the saddle.
I had been told that he was around the age of 18 and had been ridden on the trail some, but otherwise has no information about his past. After about 5 rides I had written him off as dangerous and was about to look to re-home him when a friend asked to go on a trail ride with me, using my good horse, and more or less forcing me to ride my rescue. It was set to be the make or break ride on whether he went or stayed.
The first half of the ride was a disaster. He was beyond nervous and was constantly looking for something to spook at, but never spooked for fear of what would happen to him, and I was a nervous wreck as I had just come off of back surgery and REALLY didn't want to get bucked off.
He finally gave me one really good spook and turned a 180 move almost pitching me off over his shoulder. I stayed on, and just sat quiet, and when he figured out that he didn't get in trouble, you could see the look of relief on his face. The rest of the ride actually went really well with him walking stretched out, calm, and relaxed.
The next few rides were relatively the same, but he got calmer and calmer with each ride. He is now my favorite trail horse!
I had originally thought he was just so herd bound that he was dangerous, but slowly it has come about that he has absolutely no trust in humans and only felt safe in the company of other horses. He is starting to trust me, but we have a long way to go before I feel he will truly trust a human 100%!
 
#42 ·
I haven't read the whole thread.

but, are you saying that your horse was so nervous because he had been punished every time he spooked before? and when he spooked, and you did nothing in the way of a punishment, he gained confidence?


I remember earlier in my riding journey i was riding a hrose who would periodically spook and do the 180, and he'd gotten me off 5 times! the owner of the barn said, "well did you spank him when he did that? he knows better than to do that".

i did not spank him, and I am not sure if that is a useful response. h m m ..
 
#53 ·
...I remember earlier in my riding journey i was riding a hrose who would periodically spook and do the 180, and he'd gotten me off 5 times! the owner of the barn said, "well did you spank him when he did that? he knows better than to do that".

i did not spank him, and I am not sure if that is a useful response. h m m ..
I'll throw this out FWIW, since I've adjusted my position on it:

Mia was a very spooky horse, but she was an utterly HONEST spooky horse. If she balked at something ahead, she was afraid. She was sufficiently 'willing' that she would forge ahead on 'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure', etc. If she put on the brakes, or more frequently, if she jumped sideways or spun around, she was scared.

And a scared horse doesn't get better by hitting them for being scared.

Enter Bandit. After 6 months riding him...he's a different horse. He will fake being scared when he is really just 'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure', etc. He also has times when he is SCARED - but when he is genuinely scared, he's more responsive than when he is just balking. Genuinely scared, he WANTS his rider to take charge. Balking...he's trying to take charge.

There is a different feel to his balks. In some ways, they imitate his fear - but he does the outward signs without the stiffening of his back, and there is something a little different about how he moves his head. It is hard to describe.

But when he does that, he needs to be pressured harder, not given relief. Because he isn't really afraid, and he is still entirely capable of learning and thinking - he's just rebelling.

Mia sometimes got ****** at me, but I never felt like she was truly rebelling. Bandit will try to get out of doing what I want just because he doesn't want it. It isn't fear and it isn't 'you hurt my feelings'. Just a case of I don't want to and if it looks like I'm afraid them maybe he won't push me.

I'm thinking of switching to riding him in my old Aussie-style saddle. It fits him well enough, and my slick western saddle is excellent for a relaxed trail ride, but not so good for getting in a fight. It has a little too much room, a "slick seat" and a "slick fork", a "slick" is not what I need on a rebellious horse. With the Aussie-style saddle, I can get my legs around Bandit and tell him I'm going where he is going, but I'll make him very unhappy if he goes where I don't want to go.

It has me missing the two purebred Arabian mares I've owned. Both had their faults, and I can ride Bandit in places I could not have ridden Mia, but I miss the "Oooohhhhh, what are WE doing TOGETHER today?" attitude of the mares.
 
#43 ·
My boarder's horse started to the spook and spin trick. She managed to stay on then went a little farther and again the s and s trick. I took her a riding crop and told her that as soon as he starts to turn to haul his nose around to her knee and spank his ribcage behind her leg to get his butt moving laterally in a hurry. She really got after him and that was the last time he did that.
 
#44 ·
From a trainers perspective, yes, it is easy to stamp out try in a horse and yes, many bad behaviors are man made - But I do, down to my core, believe that some horses simply will not try and do not want to please you, regardless of whether you've made their lives easy or given them a chance. They are all individuals, and like humans, will display both favorable and non favorable traits. I've seen and ridden some who just don't want to be nice to you, even from the very beginning. Very rarely are they ever dangerous, but if you give them the opportunity to step out and show that they can be motivated and have responsibility - They won't. Sure, you can make any horse a good horse - You can get them broke, get them responsive, but at the end of the day that's all they are - Another good horse among millions of other good horses.

Great horses are separated by their virtue of try. You see a lot of horses who compete and win, and are described as gritty and full of heart. Those are the great horses. The ones who are tenacious and willing enough to put themselves out there and do a job. That separates them from all the others.

It's also relative. Someone who has never set foot in a competition arena and just wants a horse for the grand kids might like the little pony down the road, who is quiet and kind and loves people. That is a great horse to them - But for a hot headed, driven competitor - They wouldn't look twice at old fluffy. It just depends what you want.
 
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#47 ·
believe that some horses simply will not try and do not want to please you, regardless of whether you've made their lives easy or given them a chance. They are all individuals,
Yes, they're all individuals, with different motivations. I actually think - if they exist at all - there are very few horses(or even dogs & people) that DO have anything you could call an innate 'desire to please' a person. What they all have though, is innate desire to please *themselves* and the 'DTP' another comes out of that, is a learned behaviour, because it good for THEM too. Animals are 'innocently selfish' and we can use that to all our advantages.

Great horses are separated by their virtue of try.
I don't disagree with that at all & there are of course special horses with more... drive than others, but I'd say that great *trainers* are separated by their ability to get horses to WANT to 'try'.

I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, ...
Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.
Because 'cheating' is a learned behaviour too, any horse can also be *taught* it 'works'. Agreed it may be vastly more difficult to 'turn around' a horse, the longer it's 'practiced' certain behaviours/attitudes. It may be 'too hard' for many, not worth the effort, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 'can't'. Granted, the trainer may not want to bother, but who's to say your friend's horse, if in CONSISTENTLY 'good hands' wouldn't 'revert' to not just better behaviour, but a better mindset to go with it? I've seen some 'confirmed rogues' turned around.
 
#45 ·
Reading a little bit into the thread now, horses who cheat are a completely different beast IMO.

There's horses who try, Horses who are apathetic, and horses who cheat. I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, and if you watch in their early days you'll see it - After a few rides they'll start to challenge, start trying to lean on the fence, dive in, tip their head out, little things most average riders wouldn't notice. It is so important to gently correct that then and there, because those little behaviors turn into things like the 180 trick Tiny described, rearing, ducking off, head throwing, jumping about, etc. Horseman who can correct those bad habits on ride #3 when they start to wake up are a godsend, because so many other can't feel that. Yet it's so important.

Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.

One of my friends had a barrel horse who went through eight (Yes, eight) years of training and competing, and it was a whole disaster. The trainer would get him going decently, she'd take him to a race and ruin him again. She'd then blame the trainer, who proceeded to undo what she did until he was okay again - And repeat. After all these years, that big horse of hers is fried. He's bred to the nines, big and beautiful and should have been full of talent - But years of being ran too hard, too early, being ruined, retaught, ruined, retaught - Just fried him. Absolutely lost his mind. Still though, when she finally decided to sell him, she wrote he was "Full of potential" and "Just needed more training." I, personally, wouldn't touch a horse like that with a ten foot pole. He'll never race competitively again because of her, and he'll never be right in the head.

I remember seeing that colt as a bright eyed youngster when she first bought him though. He was kind and easy going, never bothered by anything. Hauled to the races and had a good time. The last time I saw him though, he was in a vice grip of a rein, being led in the gate by three different people on horseback and frothing at the mouth. You just can't fix that if you let it get to that point. It's the unfortunate truth most people find hard to swallow.
 
#48 ·
Reading a little bit into the thread now, horses who cheat are a completely different beast IMO.

There's horses who try, Horses who are apathetic, and horses who cheat. I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, and if you watch in their early days you'll see it... Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.
I have to agree that I wouldn't touch that barrel horse with a 10 foot pole either. I'm not sure that what happened to that horse is an "incidental/accidental" poor outcome that might happen with any (usually inexperienced) trainer though. What happened to him was extremely long term, repetitive, and confusing over the course of years. I don't know if an individual horse could come back from that or not and suspect that it would really come down to "it depends." On the horse, the new situation, how long they tossed him out in a field to be a horse and decompress, a new handler/trainer, etc.

I think that most average riding horses in the US, and I think the world, or more on the green/minimally trained end than that one though, and I do think most of them could be made into "good citizens" as you said. I don't think they should necessarily all be counted out for having try either. I'm not talking abused horses, but just ones that got the average/cowboy training, which in my observation is based more on getting them moving under saddle quickly for sale than really teaching them to be good reliable pleasure mounts in the long term.

I wonder, would you have thought my horse a cheater? He certainly wasn't ever apathetic, but he wasn't much for trying either at the start. Freezing up and/or acting dumb doesn't really seem like a "cheat" to me since, in his case, it was out of fear.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely horses that pull dirty tricks that deserve a swat. In those cases the motivation isn't fear though, so it's a different matter to my mind and that is what I might consider "cheating."
 
#46 ·
i agree with the points Sorrel Horse made, regarding horses in general
In the case of this horse, we don't know exactly where he fits
He could just have been a horse that was never ridden much, thus never learned to accept and trust humans as leaders
He could have wound up at the rescue because someone had come off of him, when he did his spooking and trying to leave-thus dumped
Once he got those groceries in him, he showed his true level of training
In the end, does not matter, as the horse responded to good basic riding, and became what th eOP wanted
That is why, when you get a horse with an unknown history, like a rescue horse, you don;t, like many here, immediately assume that the horse was abused, if he shows negative behavior, esp after some groceries, but work with the horse you now have
 
#49 ·
When a teen I rode a horse that tried every trick in the book with me. He preferred the security of the barn with other horses. Each time I rode he'd test me then finally quit and be fine. I didn't hit him, just outrode him. I wasn't able to ride for several weeks and boy he was full of testing me, all over again. Only this time he added rearing to the mix. About the third one I hollered for my friend to close the barn door. Instead she ran out and wrapped the whip around the two legs that were on the ground. He came down fast and trotted off when I asked. He suddenly became a well mannered horse.
 
#52 ·
Some horses respond beautifully to gentle hands, simply better handling, softness, and general patience - I am of the opinion though that one needs to know when to deliver some more serious consequences.
 
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