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"Try" and re-teaching a horse heart

28K views 53 replies 26 participants last post by  Reiningcatsanddogs 
#1 ·
Random thoughts, but I can't be the only one, right? Behavior folks?

I know a lot of people like a horse with a lot of "try" or a lot of "heart" in him/her. IE, a horse that will keep working for you, even if things aren't exactly going according to plan or going perfectly and are difficult. Sometimes that difficulty is on the horse end, sometimes the rider end, and sometimes it's just a tough situation, like a stream with muddy banks, uncertain footing, and no good way to get around except by going through. Some of this could even fall under the category of bravery, I suppose.

I think that poor training stamps a lot of try and heart out of a lot of good horses. I see it in dogs too. Poor training can ruin an animal's willingness to work all too easily.

My horse was initially broke to ride by some random traditional horse-trainer in South TX. He was just another late-gelded untrained 4 year old that needed to be under saddle to be at all marketable. I don't think his training was overly harsh or in any way unusual or different from what many horses get. He got the basics. He was reprimanded when he did something wrong, and not reprimanded when he did the right thing. He's a little sensitive compared to some, but not as sensitive as others, so all in all, everything was fairly normal.

I got a horse that was terrified of doing the wrong thing though. Things he knew were right, he would do quickly and willingly, johhny-on-the-spot. Ask him something he didn't know the pat response to though (like to sidle up to a gate), and he'd get tense. He'd throw his head up in the air and either try to run off like a giraffe or try to pretend he couldn't 'hear' you at all and figuratively stuff his fingers in his ears. I think those are pretty familiar responses and things we see commonly in green horses or horses with less than perfect training.

He was so scared of the punishment for being 'wrong' that he refused to try. Flight, fight, or freeze kicked in. He didn't want to offer any behaviors or attempts to figure out what I wanted because he knew, from his previous training, that if they weren't the 'right' ones, he would be reprimanded. It's tough, and not entirely safe, to train a horse that is so scared of being wrong that his entire existence under saddle is in a state of anxiety. Fear is dangerous.

I spent the first year un-training that previous life experience. Teaching an animal that they will NOT be punished for trying to do what I want, even if their response is wrong to start with, is a slow process that can be very frustrating. The biggest hurdle is getting through to them that it is okay to try. Getting them to learn that trying, by its very self, will actually be rewarded rather than reprimanded, is the key. Baby steps. The tiniest baby steps ever. The least 'try' they will give you has to be rewarded to start. Once you have a horse willing to try to give you the right answer, it's too easy to simply guide them to the correct behavior and then only reward them for what it is you actually want.

My horse still gets anxious and worried when he doesn't know the right response or understand the question sometimes, but he lives to please, and I now have a horse that will try and try and try. He has a heart as big as TX and is utterly fearless about figuring out what crazy thing it is I want this time. Even when it goes against his natural instincts, he knows that so long as he keeps trying, he will be rewarded, and that there is no punishment for not getting it right on the first (or the fiftieth) try. Having a horse that trusts he will eventually figure out the right answer no matter how nutty the situation I've put him in seems (to him) is priceless. He knows I won't set him up to "lose", and if you can't lose, you can be a very, very brave pony indeed.

That is how my spooky green gelding became a horsie good citizen and will face all sorts of monsters (real and imaginary) and challenges just because he's asked to. Maybe it's sappy, but his "try" is my favorite thing about this horse, even though he didn't have any to begin with. Cookies if you stuck with it all. :lol:
 
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#3 ·
Trooper had been viciously spurred by some cowboy while loaned to a ranch in Colorado just before coming to us. He spent at least a year on the "You Can Do No Wrong" program, but he still worries more about getting it right. I've read that in experiments, when the horse is punished for the wrong choice, it learns faster - but at a cost. The horse then becomes more afraid of getting it wrong, and can become very hesitant. It worries more about not being wrong than being able to make a good choice. If the horse was then presented with a close call, the horse would become almost immobile. It would be too worried about being wrong to make ANY choice. :evil:
 
#5 ·
I couldn't agree more. My gelding never got a good education. From the moment he hit the ground until he was rescued he'd been beaten, thrown around and when he turned two taken to a show and nearly beat to death with a club for not running fast enough. Through years, YEARS of work we've gotten a nice gelding who positively enjoys his job. I'm constantly amazed that he throws his heart into doing whatever I ask. I can ask something that's unfair for him and he still tries his hardest to do as I ask.

Then I look at my stud colt who has always known kindness and patience and he throws his entire being into understanding and cooperating. I can ask the largest thing of him and he goes above and beyond to accomplish it. Seeing the difference between the two and the time makes me want to horsewhip the previous owner of my gelding. :mad:

Excellent post! I loved reading it!
 
#6 ·
Thank you for your kind words, but a large part of it is I was darned lucky to get the horse I did.

Sometimes I worry that he believes me too much, and I have to be smart and not betray his trust because if I tell him to go ahead and do something (go down that steep hill, into the river, whatever) he will... usually after double checking and making *sure* I really mean *that* hill, right there. A few times that has been a bad call on my part and it was only his natural instincts and athleticism that saved both our hides. There is a time, IMO, to give a horse his head and just hang on and rely on the fact that they don't want to die either. "Saving humans from themselves" is a horse job description, right? Definitely one deserving heavy praise.

I can never believe how forgiving of past mistakes horses can be. There is a reason they're so close in the hearts and minds and legends of so many cultures. It just kills me that its so easy for that to get shut down in some animals through, essentially, poor timing. The best trainers have such a sense of timing when to give that reward or release of pressure that it's like watching a magician. They seldom need to 'punish' a horse for trying out a wrong behavior because they make the right thing so easy and obvious that it doesn't get to that point. I love watching trainers or riders like that work.
 
#12 ·
:clap::clap::clap::clap: Very well said Sharpie. It is SUCH a common problem IME, that horses are effectively 'shut down' so much in training. It's not just that they're big animals that we need to control for safety's sake either, but I think is a 'hangover' of older training ideas that we're getting through, with more understanding of psychology these days. Not just animals either... how many kids & even adults are afraid of trying something new because they're frightened of getting it wrong?

I remember hearing Pat Parelli once say that Tom Dorrance went to hospital, maybe his deathbed, and called Pat in. He went there, wondering what vital piece of knowledge Tom would share, and Tom just said something like 'Don't knock the curiosity out of them'.
 
#13 ·
Thank you for the great post. My Nibbles was raised and trained by an excellent horseman. She is well behaved, calm and willing to do anything asked of her. I don't think she has ever been hit in anger. Chief, on the other hand, from what we have found out, had been owned and ridden by little girl and had been a great horse. When she lost interest he was sold to a lady who tried to make him into a barrel horse. When he wasn't fast enough or would hit a barrel or wouldn't turn right, he was roughly handled and whipped. By the time we got him he was a mess. He is very sweet, but evertime you'd raise your hands (while riding or on the ground) he would freak. Just picking up the reins would cause him to try to bolt. If you asked him to do anything at all he would either freeze and tremble or try to bolt. We really thought we had made a mistake. Gradually, however, he has come around. He wasn't with his last owner long, and I think he is reverting back to his old self. He listens and we are praising him when he tries. At this point we aren't asking anything really hard, but we make sure he is successful on what we do ask him. The bolting and freezing has completely stopped, but he will never have the calm "whatever" attitude Nibbles has, and it makes me so angry with the lady who did that to him. He tries SO hard to please and be a good boy, but even though he doesn't act up, you can tell he starts to worry when we ask something new. It sometimes makes me want to cry when I see that worried look in his eyes.
 
#14 ·
I got a horse that was terrified of doing the wrong thing though. Things he knew were right, he would do quickly and willingly, johhny-on-the-spot. Ask him something he didn't know the pat response to though (like to sidle up to a gate), and he'd get tense. He'd throw his head up in the air and either try to run off like a giraffe or try to pretend he couldn't 'hear' you at all and figuratively stuff his fingers in his ears. I think those are pretty familiar responses and things we see commonly in green horses or horses with less than perfect training.
some horses are like this, without any bad training. My Bo's mare, that was bred and raised on the farm, does this exact thing, but she's 1200lb of very athletic thoroughbred, so it can really get dangerous if you push the wrong button. She too just needed patience, a quiet rider that was understanding, and she came around.

I think try is an interesting thing to think about. you can kill the "try" in a horse by setting it up to fail. You can kill many things, like work ethic, with this method of teaching, If you cant succeed, even the most determined will only attempt it for so long. Like a job that is constantly pushing and no matter how well you do they want more. eventually you just become desensitized to it and stop really trying. You do what you have to and that's it. The only way to fix this in a horse or human, is time and patience, like the OP did. On the other hand, there are horses without try.

I got talking to a couple cowboys about it, and they have experienced horses that would "quit" out on a trail. they just were not born with the fight and heart and determination that others were. You cant teach a horse(or human) to try when it lacks the desire or ability for it.


Really good post OP
 
#20 ·
some horses are like this, without any bad training. .... You cant teach a horse(or human) to try when it lacks the desire or ability for it.
I disagree. Well, of course all horses are different, in this as any other ways, but while they may not be *born* with a lot of 'heart', it is the job of the trainer to instill that in them. They can either be encouraged or discouraged. You can absolutely & positively teach a horse to want to 'try'.
 
#15 ·
Before we declare an animal as being abused, if we haven't witnessed it then it's gossip or conjecture. Horses are adept at outsmarting humans and will test their limits. This often causes people to assume abuse. A horse shutting down is a coping mechanism. They do this when attacked or too much is asked of them. We can also sour a horse with too much repetition. I have found that when teaching in increments and the horse has an "aha" moment, it really doesn't need a lot of repetition because he understands what is being asked. It is also easy to bore these horses so we need to challenge them in different ways to keep them interested.
 
#16 ·
If you were resonding to my comments, yes the horse was abused. I know as a dog trainer that many people will say their dog has been abused when it is simply inheritently shy, and people say their horses have been abused when they haven't been. I know that it is human nature to want to "blame" someone or something for their animals behavior and to try to justify behavior that doesn't make sense to them. Chief unfortunately WAS abused. I actually saw a video of the lady "training" him, which included holding him back and whipping him until he was in a fenzy, then letting him go. She would then haul back as hard as she could on the reins to get control. The vet said he had small scars on his side from spurs. The farrier told me that he had seen her repeatedly hit Chief hard in the face for not holding still. I have been told other things as well, but have no proof of those things, so I won't say anything. We have also spoken with people who knew him before, who said he was a doll - very laid back and willing. Since we went back to the basics and have been fair in our demands, he has gotten much better. We insist that he does what we ask, and are gradually asking more and more. We are careful to reward "try". Hopefully he will be back to his old self soon.
 
#17 ·
There are more forms of abuse than just beating a horse or riding it roughly.

I sold a green Irish horse to a very good young rider. A year later he was brought back as being unrideable. He never bucked or dropped the rider, he just sagged when you went to get on him so much so how belly nearly touched the ground. The owners had oodles of money and had had the horse to all sorts of bets for an explanation. No one had one.
I chucked him out in a field and was going to have him euthanised. The day I went down to get him in. The gateway was knee deep with mud so instead of me trying to wade through the wellie sucking stuff, I vaulted across his neck and withers so he carried me through. He never sagged at all and once on firmer ground he cantered off so I just stuck a leg over him and rode him across the other field. He was even half bucking. I only had a flat halter on him so not a lot of control. I turned him to the rails and he just pricked hi ears and jumped them landing in the garden!
That changed my mind about shooting him so he stayed. I rode him out and about bareback, then I ponied him tacked up. Then started to rode him. Whatever had bothered him had disappeared.
He was a very good horse, always tried his best and I won many show jumping competitions with him.
At a regional competition it was held in an indoor arena. I had jumped him in a warm up class earlier and he was his usual self. Took him into the indoor and his back immediately sagged. I dismounted and took him out. He was tense and upset. I walked him in hand away from the other horses and into some woods. He began to relax and so I vaulted onto him. He was fine. I rode him bareback to the other horses and as soon as he was near the indoor he sagged.
Next day he was fine. It made me think. A call to the girl and I was told that as he had been spooky when she rode him out her father forbid her from roding anywhere bar the indoor arena.

I kept him because he puzzled me. I would pony him around a local indoor and soon he was slightly happier. I had ridden him around t on a couple of occasions and although he never sagged he was tight. One day two of us had had a lovely ride and we were passing the indoor so I thought I would give him a quick trot around it. The local Pont Club were having a gymkhana games practise so we just sat on our horses as the hairy ponies raced up and down with children jumping on and off them. Cheeky was fascinated and stood excitedly watching.
One girl offered me a bending race challenge so we raced up and down the poles. Cheeky loved it, wasn't far behind the pony at the finish!
I never managed to get him working or jumping happily in an indoor, he did it without sagging but was never relaxed.

He had never been knocked around or incorrectly ridden but the mental abuse, although unintentional, had occurred and went unrecognised.

I kept him for three years turning down a lot of money for him amd in the end I gave him to a girl who had ridden ponies for me. I knew she would give him a wonderful home and she would never get rid of him nor would she force him indoors.
She kept him through thick and thin. He was finally euthanised at her home at the grand old age of thirty three.
 
#18 ·
You can train a horse (or dog, human, any animal) either by punishing the incorrect responses or by rewarding the correct (or a little of both). Both techniques will get you results, but they will produce very different horses. I used to think my horse would never have any drive or desire to please me, but found that switching up training methods completely changed her.
 
#19 ·
Wonderful original post and follow up too. You are so right. Horses are amazing creatures. I wish the rest of the world knew that.
 
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#21 ·
I've never tried cutting cattle, so take this FWIW:

I read a book about cutting. The guy said it was important to start the horse on a cow the horse could 'beat'. He said you could then train it up and get a horse who would give you his best. But if you put him on too tough a cow too quick, the horse would give up and never be worth a darn cutting. Part of good training was to pick challenges that set the horse up for success, and then build on those successes.

That makes sense to me. I do know a study was done where horses who made the wrong choice had an air horn go off to punish them. It was a fast way to train them, but the horses would become more focused on not making the wrong choice, and eventually would refuse to make a choice at all.

In that sense, I don't think horses are all that different from humans. In the military, some commanders were "no mistakes allowed" in their approach. In those squadrons, folks worked hard to avoid responsibility and refused to take initiative because it would only buy them trouble in the long run. I also had some bosses who would understand a reasonable mistake and cover your butt, and those squadrons tended to be outstanding.
 
#22 ·
I've never tried cutting cattle, so take this FWIW:

I read a book about cutting. The guy said it was important to start the horse on a cow the horse could 'beat'. He said you could then train it up and get a horse who would give you his best. But if you put him on too tough a cow too quick, the horse would give up and never be worth a darn cutting. Part of good training was to pick challenges that set the horse up for success, and then build on those successes.
SOOO true, and not exclusive to cutting training!
 
#23 ·
A wonderful aspect of working with a horse at liberty is he can walk away if what you are asking is too much. By allowing this to happen with no consequence the horse comes to realize it wasn't so bad and will do better the next time. eg the ground tarp was too much so the horse left. He didn't go far. I waited. He returned of his own volition and crossed the tarp full of confidence.
 
#25 ·
I was working with a very green percheron gelding this weekend, which reminded me of this thread. His owner is a wonderful person and a decent rider, but not super experienced and prone to nervousness and anxiety. The horse was not really touched out on the range until 2, when he was brought in as a stud, at which point he was halter broke and gelded.

since then he has been worked with a lot, on and off over the last 4 years. He is very sensitive, 16.2hh, 2000lb, top of the herd, and tends to be reactive and nervous. He has gotten to the point where he is excellent at all his ground work, super respectful, but panics. He was taught to drive, and had panicking issues with something behind him. he has been started under saddle and thrown people at least 3 times in his handful of rides. I started working with him to figure out what was going on, he was great for me, reactive and sensitive, but super willing and attentive. We rode all over the country side, often leading a group, and I had not one significant issue. After the first 5 minutes of anxiety he quieted down.

it finally dawned on me what had happened to this horse. He had been set up to fail. On the ground he was taught that his handler was the leader, but in the saddle it was a different story. His rider would get on, he was green and unsure, and then they would become nervous, which would scare him, and then them, until he was in a panic. He would be asked to do things, like trot, but his rider would immediately tense, so he would tense, so they would panic, and he would follow suit. Despite the best intentions, his riders set him up to fail, and doing what people asked of him resulted in fear and tension. He was so afraid of picking the wrong answer that he didn't want to pick any at all.
 
#26 ·
A really good original post and many excellent comments from people that obviously know their "stuff".
I'll just throw my 2 cents in and say that a sensitive horse needs to be able to make mistakes without repercussion. Most of my experience has been with Arabs and I have found that they are not a good match for trainers that aren't patient and don't take the time to gain their trust.

I have an 11 year old Quarab mare that I believe the previous owners gave up on because they though she couldn't handle pressure. All she needed was time away from spurs and less use of the end of the reins.
Her head is now back in the game (a year later) and she is calm and has a controlled energy, and she deals with things unfamiliar to her like a bomb proof old draft horse.
 
#29 ·
I was reading this thread by reiningcatsanddogs http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/thinking-horse-cognition-perception-523273/ that referenced this article from 2005 about current research and findings about equine thinking abilities http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf While I was reading it, about halfway through, there was the following phrase: "This horse displayed the ability of “learning to learn” by using a general solution (one pattern in each pair was always rewarded) to more easily solve subsequent tests and was able to retain 77.5% of the [correct answers] after 6 mo."

I was So Very Excited when I read this, because this is exactly it. It is exactly what happened with my boy that changed him from a fearful-to-act horse into a determined-to-get-it-right horse. He "learned to learn". He learned there always was a right answer and how to go about figuring out what it is. And then, once he'd figured it out, he'd not only remember that answer, but use it to figure out the answer to the questions or challenges I'd face him with next.

I especially thought the idea of teaching horses enough so they have broad categories to toss novel objects into rather than having to figure out every band new thing as an individual potential monster is dead on. To start with, every cue and every object is a separate cue or object on its own that takes its own time and worry to deal with. Once a horse has seen enough "stuff" most of them, including mine, seem to start to begin "lumping" a new thing into a category they have in their head of old things so that they just treat it like they treat the other things in that group.

For example, my guy seems to understand that "bridges" are a thing and sometimes there are noises. Rattly chains, echoing foot falls, etc. But no matter how visually different or different they sound (overpass, railroad tie construct, graveled culverts, stone, etc) I now imagine him thinking, "Oh. This is one of THOSE things" as he sighs and moves over ones he has never seen the likes of before.

This article also validates my personal pet theory which is that we should act crazy around our horses (from their point of view) sometimes to teach them that the proper response to erratic or crazy human behavior is to ignore us. That way when my horse sees someone ignorant of horses 'act crazy' while we're out it the world, my horse can go, "Oh. We've done this one before. Standing quietly is the right answer. Can do" rather than freaking out. So often people look at me as though I've lost my mind. "You'll scare the horse!" Yes. That is the point, and done in a planned, careful manner, it is so that they're NOT scared when this happens under saddle and my health and life are at risk.
 
#33 ·
"This horse displayed the ability of “learning to learn”
Yes! I think THAT is the most important lesson of all that we can instill in our horses - a desire to learn our 'games'. Same with kids. I(and so many others of my era) went to school & learned to hate it, was put down & punished by my teacher when I made mistakes, we did things by 'rote' and to my memory, no attempt was made to make it fun.... I learned to think of it as 'work' & something to be endured. I got by & passed each year, but it wasn't until late high school, that I went to a 'progressive' new school & was treated respectfully & learned that lessons could be really fun & interesting.... & started to excel.

I was really nervous of the whole school thing, when I first had kids. But it seems times have a changed and more often than not, teachers are more considerate of all that. But still... then I walked into one local school, where all the kids seemed to be having fun & doing well. There were signs on the walls saying things like 'young children must play to learn'... & I knew I could relax! I chose that school over others, for the positive aspect, thinking that it was more important, especially in early years, than actual academic standards. But what do you know?? This school also happens to have a higher academic standard, and produces kids happy & competent to be leaders too!
 
#30 ·
I am going to add one thing to this discussion....horses are very good at associative learning where one punishment or reward becomes linked mentally with an object, person or action.

We hear it all the time, pressure, release.

It is quite possible in the mind of the horse, through associative learning, for the simple presence a particular person to become the pressure itself. Your simple presence becomes the pressure.

That is the downside of an aggressive use of negative reinforcement training methods. Because of the transfer of pressure = person, a release is never obtained in that person's presence (horses are good at categorization as well) and it inhibits learning. Prolonged use can lead to a generalization; all people = pressure.

That is why I believe so strongly in the importance of spending "down time" with your horse where you are asking absolutely nothing from them and their choices are theirs, you are simply "present".

For me, I enjoy just plopping a chair out in the middle of the pasture (just our horses and our own pasture) and sitting there watching them. I don't ask or expect them to come to me, but if they choose to I let them.

I don't use liberty training but I believe this is part of the learning theory behind it.

Please don't read into this and think it refers to acceptance/ignorance of dangerous behaviors. It simply gives them an opportunity to experience true release around you and tempers the formation of that person is pressure association and aids learning in the long run.
 
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