Willing Compliance or Aversive Reflex - Page 17 - The Horse Forum
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post #161 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I'm not sure if this will help or not, but, I think Reining is responding, Smilie, to a perceived feeling that you dis-value any approach to horse keeping/training that isn't focused on producing a competitive or 'using' horse, such as you produce.

I feel that I can see, to a certain extent, both sides. I mean, I have a real respect, and even awe, for the way you train your horses, Smilie, to be adaptable, dependable and usable in some pretty demandign situations. I have to stand back and say, "I could never do that".

but, I also get a bit irritated, nay, shall I say 'offended' , when you say with patent asssurance that you are certain that NH is pretty much worthless and a hoax and only produces spoiled horses and a way for hucksters to make money, ets. . . meaning you have Zero respect for it. . . . it sounds a bit like you have a preconceived notion that just shuts out anyone that ISN'T like you in their approach. To me, that sounds a bit arrogant. it's not surprising that it rubs people the wrong way. you could be missing out on some pretty awesome stuff by assuming that anything outside of what you see as ok, is just all fluff and rainbow farts.
Well, obviously, my stance comes across incorrectly, inspite of the fact that I have given numerous examples of very close connection I have had with horses
I do not discard all NH methods, and in fact, use many of them, without applying labels. I read much of their work, including that of Canada's own Chris Irwin. I see none of them just advocating positive re -enforcement, at all times, and that is where the disagreement arises, by people using/reading incorrect application-whether it be over flexing, round penning, getting hung up in join up, without even truly recognizing as to what it is
No, i truly believe in being as'gentle with a hrose as possible, but also as firm as needed. I do not agree with those that wish only to apply the first part of that equation (again, not taking of an abused or fearful horse )and entirely assume all NH completely rejects the 'but also, as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen.'
I have attended many equine conferences, where vets researching equine learning, behavior are given Like in all things,as in training methods, I use what makes sense, seems to have solid data, and throw the rest out
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post #162 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I'm not sure if this will help or not, but, I think Reining is responding, Smilie, to a perceived feeling that you dis-value any approach to horse keeping/training that isn't focused on producing a competitive or 'using' horse, such as you produce.

I feel that I can see, to a certain extent, both sides. I mean, I have a real respect, and even awe, for the way you train your horses, Smilie, to be adaptable, dependable and usable in some pretty demandign situations. I have to stand back and say, "I could never do that".

but, I also get a bit irritated, nay, shall I say 'offended' , when you say with patent asssurance that you are certain that NH is pretty much worthless and a hoax and only produces spoiled horses and a way for hucksters to make money, ets. . . meaning you have Zero respect for it. . . . it sounds a bit like you have a preconceived notion that just shuts out anyone that ISN'T like you in their approach. To me, that sounds a bit arrogant. it's not surprising that it rubs people the wrong way. you could be missing out on some pretty awesome stuff by assuming that anything outside of what you see as ok, is just all fluff and rainbow farts.

Well, obviously, my stance comes across incorrectly, inspite of the fact that I have given numerous examples of very close connection I have had with horses
I do not discard all NH methods, and in fact, use many of them, without applying labels. I read much of their work, including that of Canada's own Chris Irwin. I see none of them just advocating positive re -enforcement, at all times, and that is where the disagreement arises, by people using/reading incorrect application-whether it be over flexing, round penning, getting hung up in join up, without even truly recognizing as to what it is
No, i truly believe in being as'gentle with a hrose as possible, but also as firm as needed. I do not agree with those that wish only to apply the first part of that equation (again, not taking of an abused or fearful horse )and entirely assume all NH completely rejects the 'but also, as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen.'
I have attended many equine conferences, where vets researching equine learning, behavior are give talks. Like in all things,as in training methods, I use what makes sense, seems to have solid data, and throw the rest out
For instance, Dr Sid Gustaveson, who specializes in equine behavior, is very strong on the position that horses are evolved to being able to move almost constantly,, for their physical and mental health, yet many here, where regular stalling is an accepted practice, completely toss that out the window, and instead, treat sterio typi behavior, accept that treating equine ulcers, versus preventing clinical significant ones, is just part of owning horses
Even after a previous long mountain ride, my horses will walk up to me in the pasture, to be haltered, =so hardly horses that don't wish to be with me, just because I use a combination of R+ and R-, so I have just as much of aright, to be offended, when it is implied, intended or not, that my horses can't possibly want to work for me, out of willing compliance, I don't have just as deep a connection with my horses, , ect, ect, ect
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post #163 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 11:39 AM
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I came across this on fb in a discussion on positive reinforcement and couldn't resist sharing it here. Interestingly, the issue was a horse that refused to move forwards, and this was the very same problem I had with my horse that sent me searching for alternatives to R- methods. I used clicker training successfully: so much easier to remotivate a stale or scared horse using R+ than just keep increasing the pressure until you both bust.
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post #164 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 11:53 AM
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And, no argument, far as using R+ on ascared or abused horse. I have made that disclaimer many, many times, along with ruling out any pain, which includes, metal [pain'
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post #165 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 12:20 PM
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Don't know where this post went to, as I posted it separately, since this topic was developing too many \tentacles
There is a middle point, far as being too harsh with ahrose, and overly permissive, failing to give any clear boundaries. This article below, merely gives a point of view when the ;killing them with kindness' by providing no consistent leadership to a horse, afraid to ever use 'ask, ask louder, then demand,, results in a horse that is a 'poor citizen, every much as an abused horse, whether easier to re-train or not.
Neither extreme is correct, and that has been my entire point.


Horses actually get a great sense of security in fair, firm, clear leadership. The don't do well with grey areas

I also reject the idea, that since I do use pressure and release, as applicable, my horses somehow lack the bond and affection some here claim they have , with their horses, being superior, because they entirely reject ever using any R- enforcement. I like, that person in that article, at one point, as a kid, used only R+, and created a one person horse, that was a pet, for me, but if asked to do anything by anyone else, would act aggressive
Not saying that I don't love my horses like pets, and in fact, truth be told, even though my dog shows me more outright devotion, am more affectionate towards my horses, as I am a horse person first.
However, I do not treat my horses like pets, as that term truly implies

Opening paragraph, then link to article

'For ten years, I’ve been in the horse adoption profession. Before that, I had several years of other horse-related experience — ranging from owning horses, acting as a working student in assorted barns, teaching beginner riding lessons, and exercising horses for pay. As you can imagine, I’ve seen many types of horses, owners, and trainers over that time. And I have come to the conclusion that it is actually is a form of mistreatment to love horses so much that you spoil them.'

Good Intentions and Cruelty to Horses - LOPE

I think the entire problem , far as this topic, is not understanding exactly what either side is saying, and most here probably agree more then disagree, once it gets down tot he nitty gritty
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post #166 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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@bsms

If you go to their website you'll see that Ground Control horse shoes are now in their 16th year of production.

Home

Yep, as you know, I'm in the desert also. But at 3,500 feet there is a different thorn problem but still a thorn problem. Plus all the embedded rocks. I often literally say aloud, "Your feet buddy, your choice".

I've tried both Hondo and Rimmey barefoot on the front recently and both were ouchy. I've been riding with them barefoot on the hinds for about one month over some pretty bad stuff with no complaints. All ratios on the hinds are really good.

I've chosen the GC's mostly because I want Hondo to have 24/7 proper breakover location and that can't be done at present without leaving him very ouchy. It's been two years since I began trimming him and have gotten nowhere, or not nearly as far as I should have.

Plus I'm not comfortable with placing a nail up high and they won't hold well down low. I am comfortable with placing a screw that exits between 1/4-3/8" up while not touching the sole and they do hold.

The GC does not have a breakover placed back as does the Natural Balance steel shoe but I carefully cut one using a sawzall with the shoe in a jig.

Hondo's front and hind heels have spread about 1/2" since the breakover has been correct. But the fronts are still stretched.

Where you ride, I think just about any boot would work ok at a walk. Foot form and boot fit is all important. Some boots just won't fit a particular form, or at least not well.

I like the gloves, but at first the fit kit needs to be used. And one needs to be certain on how to measure.

Valley Vet usually has the best price on easycare boots although I did see a lower price recently on the 2016 gloves on Distance Depot.

Good on you for dismounting in the ouchy stuff. I've had your same experience with Hondo wanting to cut across through the softer stuff even when it looks (to me) as being rockier. Your feet your choice.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #167 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Well, obviously, my stance comes across incorrectly, in spite of the fact
I'm going to cautiously enter a thought, just a thought.

I think it may not be as much what you believe and what your experience has been but that it may sometimes be offered as too much of a stance rather than a shared experience and opinion that is open to discussion.

Offering a stance is like taking a stand which doesn't seem conducive to an open free exchange of information and experiences which I think the forum is all about.

On another topic, the thing about as "soft as possible and as firm as necessary" is that some people tend to take firm as necessary and run with it as a way to justify what you would call abuse.

That terminology is as much of a label as any other group of words and is misread by many. As firm as necessary is just so subjective as to mean so many different things to so many different people is the basis of my objection.

For every person posting, there is usually upteen reading.

Edit: On your last post.......I, at least, have never ever seen anything posted that I interpreted as suggesting you were anything other than kind to your horses. Just because some people have experimented with +R successfully doest not mean that they think all who use R- are mean to their horses. Please!

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"

Last edited by Hondo; 10-09-2016 at 12:56 PM.
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post #168 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 12:59 PM
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"Your feet buddy, your choice"

I couldn't count the times I've told Bandit, "You've got to watch your own feet. I can't do it for you. Do what you need to do and I'll back you."

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #169 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 01:09 PM
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I thought many of you might find this useful.



This [Plutchik wheel] is one of many models of emotion but the base emotions are fairly well accepted by the majority. One of his explicit precepts is that this applies to both human and animals.

How to read:

The second loop out is what is generally the accepted as the 8 basic emotions (some identify six, some ten) These are emotions shared by all creatures that have a limbic system (sometimes mis called the lizard or primitive brain).

The center segments and the outlying band are related emotions, though not a simple intensification or mellowing of the base and believed present in familiar form for animals with a cerebral neocortex.

The final, outermost band between the petals of the flower are what are considered complex emotions, while the components necessary to form those emotions are provided by the limbic system, in humans, the complex emotions seem to originate in many different areas of the brain and then come together dependent upon many combinations of variables; from the way the individual brain is wired to processes sensory input to past learned experiences.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer



Last edited by Reiningcatsanddogs; 10-09-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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post #170 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 02:25 PM
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I'm sure that a lot of the people that do over react when correcting a horse to the point where it does become abuse do so as much out of fear than anything else
I also think that some people behave that way because they get an odd form of pleasure out of it - being able to do inflict punishment on an animal as large and strong as a horse gives them a sense of empowerment
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