Willing Compliance or Aversive Reflex - Page 18 - The Horse Forum
 1397Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #171 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 03:25 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I'm going to cautiously enter a thought, just a thought.

I think it may not be as much what you believe and what your experience has been but that it may sometimes be offered as too much of a stance rather than a shared experience and opinion that is open to discussion.

Offering a stance is like taking a stand which doesn't seem conducive to an open free exchange of information and experiences which I think the forum is all about.

On another topic, the thing about as "soft as possible and as firm as necessary" is that some people tend to take firm as necessary and run with it as a way to justify what you would call abuse.

That terminology is as much of a label as any other group of words and is misread by many. As firm as necessary is just so subjective as to mean so many different things to so many different people is the basis of my objection.

For every person posting, there is usually upteen reading.

Edit: On your last post.......I, at least, have never ever seen anything posted that I interpreted as suggesting you were anything other than kind to your horses. Just because some people have experimented with +R successfully doest not mean that they think all who use R- are mean to their horses. Please!
Thanks, Hondo, for explaining how I might come across, far as stance, but do you not see, where just like some might take my 'firm as possible', meaning to actually include pain and abuse, I might in turn, take the other end of the spectrum, into the realm of spoiling, where a horse is never truly given any guidelines that make them a 'good citizen?
Smilie is offline  
post #172 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 03:32 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Reinin, I will address your wheel more thoroughly , once I have the time to really study it
There is the fact, that horses lack the part of the brain that allows higher thinking,reasoning. I will need to take the time to refer back to my book on "evidence based Horsemanship, to make sure I get that brain functions correct
Thus, I truly believe that you cannot just interpolate the way humans learn, to the way horses learn, 100%
There is absolutely no objection on my part, that many people over react when correcting a horse, and do in fact, actually inflict both fear and pain, but I also believe there are just as many on the other end of the spectrum, that spoil a horse, by fearing to ever correct that horse, just wanting to use R+, as they fear to do otherwise, will make the horse 'not love them"
Smilie is offline  
post #173 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,391
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I also think that some people behave that way because they get an odd form of pleasure out of it - being able to do inflict punishment on an animal as large and strong as a horse gives them a sense of empowerment
I think that's called sadism. They do it to small animals and people too.
jaydee likes this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #174 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,391
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Thanks, Hondo, for explaining how I might come across, far as stance, but do you not see, where just like some might take my 'firm as possible', meaning to actually include pain and abuse, I might in turn, take the other end of the spectrum, into the realm of spoiling, where a horse is never truly given any guidelines that make them a 'good citizen?
No, actually I do not.

Soft as possible and as firm as necessary are both attached to the notion of getting results from training. Because the notion is results oriented, I do not see a parallel at all between causing spoiled horses and abused horses.

I would say, if you are getting results with soft, go a little softer with no limit providing results are obtained.

But I would not in a minute say that about firm as necessary. If not getting results, keep getting firmer until you do.

While we're at this, as you have a ton of experience, what, or how would you describe the upper limit of firmness before one stops and decides something is wrong with this picture?

And this is not a debate win/lose situation where winner takes all. Hopefully a win-win where everybody concerned benefits and takes at least something home.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #175 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,391
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
There is absolutely no objection on my part, that many people over react when correcting a horse, and do in fact, actually inflict both fear and pain, but I also believe there are just as many on the other end of the spectrum, that spoil a horse, by fearing to ever correct that horse, just wanting to use R+, as they fear to do otherwise, will make the horse 'not love them"
See smilie, there you go again. You "seem" to suggest that anybody who wants to use only R+ does so only because they want their horse to "love" them.

I, and I'll betcha a lot of others as well, view that as very derogatory attitude toward people who attempt R+ only.

Do you believe there are, "just as many on the other end of the spectrum" based on your experience/observations or some other?

Again, no offense smilie, but sometimes you do come across as, "I'm here, been there done that, I know what I'm doing, have ribbons to prove it", "there is really nothing left for me to learn." "I am here simply to share what I know about horses." "I have been wrong earlier in my life but it has been a long long time."

I say this with no malice in my heart.

Even Tom Dorrance said he was learning right up until the last.
loosie, phantomhorse13 and jaydee like this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #176 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 05:12 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I think that's called sadism. They do it to small animals and people too.
now, we are getting into the realms of psychopaths/sociopaths, and not 'normal ' brain activity, where that former person derives a sense of power or even pleasure, from inflicting pain on others. Way, way off track, far as pressure and release, as it pertains to 'normal people training horses"
Smilie is offline  
post #177 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 05:18 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Again HOndo, I also get the implied idea, just reading responses, that if anyone does use R-, they only use that, their horses don't have anywhere near the bond with them, as those that chose to use only R+, and, that their horses only submit to being with them, versus actually enjoying that partnership, plus the horses are trained through force, rather then understanding,empathy and relating to a horse, in a 'language' that he learned through eons of evolution, as a herd/prey species
bsms likes this.
Smilie is offline  
post #178 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 05:24 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,856
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
...I, and I'll betcha a lot of others as well, view that as very derogatory attitude toward people who attempt R+ only...
Has anyone ever even TRIED using R+ ONLY with a horse? If so, what results have they documented, and is there a reasonable chance an average person could duplicate those results?

And apart from a science experiment, why would someone take that approach UNLESS they thought using R- methods was either ineffective or morally objectionable? And since, in many cases, R- methods do result in a confident, willing and even eager horse, would not their objection NEED to be moral? [Note - excepting genuinely abused horses]

And if they find using R- methods morally objectionable, is it not reasonable for those of us who disagree to want to know their basis for objecting, when it seems entirely possible to train happy horses while including R- techniques?

As often and as strongly as @Smilie and I have disagreed, I understand her frustration. I'd bet money she has horses who are trained, willing and even enthusiastic much of the time using techniques that folks are treating as cave-man tactics. At least, my impression in reading this thread is that using R+ techniques = good person who cares about horses, and using R- techniques = bad person who has not experienced what a good relationship with a horse means. It is like I've wandered into a competition to see who loves their horse the most!

It might not be intentional, but I kind of get the feeling that admitting I've popped Bandit in the gut with my heels - did it yesterday, in the wash, when he was about to get booger-brained about some dead branches he needed to go past - that behavior like that means I'm abusive, that I'm too stupid or uncaring to belong on a horse, that I ought to sell my 3 and go back to dirt bikes...

FWIW, after I popped him with my heels, he snorted - and then walked on by without a glance at the dead branches piled on one side. But based on 17months of riding him, if I had not, he would have turned those branches into fire-breathing dragons. He's done it before.

And what is kinder to the horse - pop him in the gut and go on without a worry, or let him build a head full of fear over something he knows, deep down, doesn't merit fear?

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
post #179 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 05:40 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Again HOndo, I also get the implied idea, just reading responses, that if anyone does use R-, they only use that, their horses don't have anywhere near the bond with them, as those that chose to use only R+, and, that their horses only submit to being with them, versus actually enjoying that partnership, plus the horses are trained through force, rather then through understanding,empathy and relating to a horse, in a 'language' that he learned through eons of evolution, as a herd/prey species
Sorry, Hondo, if you get the impression that I think that I have nothing left to learn. The fact that I attend annual Horse breeder and owner conferences, refutes that. I do take from all those seminars, countless books I read on all subjects, pertaining to horses, keep taking clinics whenever I can, because I am well aware of the fact that learning about horses is a life time Journey
I do, take from those seminars, just like from clinics, what works for me and my horses.
Even hard science, clinical trials often refute former accepted knowledge, with new trials. The same principle applies to what is now 'believed how horses learn, using often lab settings. Heck, we don't even fully understand how the human brain works, so to believe that any definitive knowledge of how
horses learn, is 100% correct, is just not so
I also see a tendency for some,e sp those that have taken some psychology courses, worked with abused horses, tend to simply trash all traditional horse training principles, and only embrace R+ and assume they have some mind meld with their horses that transcends what a horse evolved to be, and a connection that eludes anyone else.
In the end, horses don't lie ( I believe that comes from Chris Irwin, and a title of one of his books)
If your horse works for you, the way you want him to, trusts you, works with a willing attitude, then whatever you are using, is correct for you and your horse.
I read just just works of well known traditional trainers, but that of people like Rashid, Buck B, Irwin, and a host of others. Just like when going to clinics, though, I take from each what works for me and my horses
I guess perception via these sites, without seeing how people interact with their horses, can often be flawed, and I'll just have to live under that burden, as I have always been someone that has expressed what they believed, versus worrying about being popular!
Smilie is offline  
post #180 of 765 Old 10-09-2016, 05:44 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Thankyou, BSMS, for understanding what I have been trying to say, along with my frustrations!
bsms likes this.
Smilie is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Compositi Reflex wide track stirrups hoovesandpaws Saddle Fitting Issues 5 05-10-2014 07:59 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome